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The St. Louis Rams’ ‘Hands Up, Don’t Shoot’ Protest [W:256]

Ockham said:
As was already stated, the act of mimicking the "hands up don't shoot" was and is based on a lie. That didn't happen. If the RAMS players want to mimick a lie they are free to do so - they have free speech to make themselves look silly all they want. The NFL and the RAMS organization have come out saying they will not impede nor punish the players for doing so and that's fine by me.
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It's symbolism. Surely you can understand that.
 
Perotista said:
Maybe all this stuff has become too common place or I have just become harden to it. It just doesn't bother me.
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The reason that it's a big thing is that it was done at a time when there were rioting going on. By doing that, you are excusing the actions of those rioters and looters, especially considering they live there. Outside of that area, the hands up don't shoot, while a complete farce at this point, can be more of a symbol. But for that area, no way.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
You have got to be kidding me. You can't even prove that "hands up" is a lie, let alone extrapolate from that to say that all who protest are liars. And libertarians are not immune to lying. I'm not sure you live in the same reality I do.
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I read the Grand Jury testimonies. Did you? It was proven that he didn't have his hands up in surrender, just as it was proven he was not shot in the back. You can believe the "witnesses" who said both were true - they admitted in the end, under oath, that they were lying.

Are your posts intentionally absurd?
 
Hamster Buddha said:
The reason that it's a big thing is that it was done at a time when there were rioting going on. By doing that, you are excusing the actions of those rioters and looters, especially considering they live there. Outside of that area, the hands up don't shoot, while a complete farce at this point, can be more of a symbol. But for that area, no way.
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The looters and rioters are burning down and destroying their own homes and businesses. That always seems to happen when ever some blacks gets mad at the establishment. Anyone dropping in from Mars would think they were mad at themselves as they are destroying themselves.

No, I am not condoning a thing. It has just become so old hat, it is what is expected.
 
Perotista said:
The looters and rioters are burning down and destroying their own homes and businesses. That always seems to happen when ever some blacks gets mad at the establishment. Anyone dropping in from Mars would think they were mad at themselves as they are destroying themselves.

No, I am not condoning a thing. It has just become so old hat, it is what is expected.
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I take objection that this always seems to happened. Nothing that MLK was involved in (marches and such) led to rioting and looting.
 
tres borrachos said:
I read the Grand Jury testimonies. Did you? It was proven that he didn't have his hands up in surrender, just as it was proven he was not shot in the back. You can believe the "witnesses" who said both were true - they admitted in the end, under oath, that they were lying.

Are your posts intentionally absurd?
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no, it was NOT proven that brown did not have his hands in a surrender position
there was no trial to make such a determination
stay tuned to the civil trial and then we will find out whether his hands were actually in that submissive position
 
justabubba said:
no, it was NOT proven that brown did not have his hands in a surrender position
there was no trial to make such a determination
stay tuned to the civil trial and then we will find out whether his hands were actually in that submissive position
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The Grand Jury testimony.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I take objection that this always seems to happened. Nothing that MLK was involved in (marches and such) led to rioting and looting.
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Post Civil Rights Era: 1978 to today[edit]
1978: Houston's Moody Park on the first anniversary of Joe Campos Torres death.
1980: Miami Riots (Miami, Florida)
1980: Chattanooga Riot (Chattanooga, Tennessee)
1984: Lawrence, Massachusetts Race Riot: A small scale riot centered at the intersection of Haverhill and railroad streets between working class whites and Hispanics; several buildings were destroyed by Molotov cocktails; August 8, 1984.[46]
1989: Overtown Riot (Miami, FL) In a reaction to the shooting of a black motorcyclist by a Hispanic police officer in the predominately black community of Overtown in Miami, residents rioted for two nights. The officer was later found guilty of manslaughter.
1991: Crown Heights riot (Crown Heights neighborhood, Brooklyn, New York City)
1992: Los Angeles Riots (Los Angeles, California): In a reaction to the acquittal of all four LAPD officers involved in the videotaped beating of Rodney King and the murder of Latasha Harlins; riots broke out mainly involving black youths in the black neighborhoods and shop owners in Korean neighborhoods, but overall rioting was mainly to get out the frustrations of the racial groups over the racial tensions that were building in the South Central neighborhood for years[citation needed].
1996: St. Petersburg Riots (St. Petersburg, Florida): After Officer Jim Knight stopped 18 yr. old Tyron Lewis for speeding, his car lurched forward and Knight fired his weapon, fatally wounding the black teenager. Riots broke out and lasted for about 2 days.[citation needed]
2001: Cincinnati riots (Cincinnati, Ohio): In a reaction to the fatal shooting of an unarmed young black male, Timothy Thomas by Cincinnati police officer Steven Roach, during a foot pursuit, riots broke out over the span of a few days.
2003: Benton Harbor riots (Benton Harbor, Michigan)
2005: 2005 Toledo Riot (Toledo, Ohio): A race riot that broke out after a planned Neo-Nazi protest march through a black neighborhood.
2006: Fontana High School riot (Fontana, California): Riot involving about 500 Latino and black students[47]
2006: Prison Race Riots (California): A war between Latino and black prison gangs set off a series of riots across California[48][49]
2008: Locke High School riot[50] (Los Angeles, California)
2009: 2009 Oakland Riots (Oakland, California): Peaceful protests turned into rioting after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black man, Oscar Grant, by a BART transit policeman.
2014: Shooting of Michael Brown, later riots break out after the shooting was believed to be racially motivated.
 
Perotista said:
Post Civil Rights Era: 1978 to today[edit]
1978: Houston's Moody Park on the first anniversary of Joe Campos Torres death.
1980: Miami Riots (Miami, Florida)
1980: Chattanooga Riot (Chattanooga, Tennessee)
1984: Lawrence, Massachusetts Race Riot: A small scale riot centered at the intersection of Haverhill and railroad streets between working class whites and Hispanics; several buildings were destroyed by Molotov cocktails; August 8, 1984.[46]
1989: Overtown Riot (Miami, FL) In a reaction to the shooting of a black motorcyclist by a Hispanic police officer in the predominately black community of Overtown in Miami, residents rioted for two nights. The officer was later found guilty of manslaughter.
1991: Crown Heights riot (Crown Heights neighborhood, Brooklyn, New York City)
1992: Los Angeles Riots (Los Angeles, California): In a reaction to the acquittal of all four LAPD officers involved in the videotaped beating of Rodney King and the murder of Latasha Harlins; riots broke out mainly involving black youths in the black neighborhoods and shop owners in Korean neighborhoods, but overall rioting was mainly to get out the frustrations of the racial groups over the racial tensions that were building in the South Central neighborhood for years[citation needed].
1996: St. Petersburg Riots (St. Petersburg, Florida): After Officer Jim Knight stopped 18 yr. old Tyron Lewis for speeding, his car lurched forward and Knight fired his weapon, fatally wounding the black teenager. Riots broke out and lasted for about 2 days.[citation needed]
2001: Cincinnati riots (Cincinnati, Ohio): In a reaction to the fatal shooting of an unarmed young black male, Timothy Thomas by Cincinnati police officer Steven Roach, during a foot pursuit, riots broke out over the span of a few days.
2003: Benton Harbor riots (Benton Harbor, Michigan)
2005: 2005 Toledo Riot (Toledo, Ohio): A race riot that broke out after a planned Neo-Nazi protest march through a black neighborhood.
2006: Fontana High School riot (Fontana, California): Riot involving about 500 Latino and black students[47]
2006: Prison Race Riots (California): A war between Latino and black prison gangs set off a series of riots across California[48][49]
2008: Locke High School riot[50] (Los Angeles, California)
2009: 2009 Oakland Riots (Oakland, California): Peaceful protests turned into rioting after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black man, Oscar Grant, by a BART transit policeman.
2014: Shooting of Michael Brown, later riots break out after the shooting was believed to be racially motivated.
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Martin Luther King died in 1968, this list is pointless. It's almost sad that you wasted so much time and effort on a something that had nothing to do with my point.

Edit: I'm even more insulted that someone liked that list. Shows they have no clue what we're talking about either.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I take objection that this always seems to happened. Nothing that MLK was involved in (marches and such) led to rioting and looting.
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Ironic, considering MLK blvd in most major cities is the center and hub of violence.
 
Perotista said:
Post Civil Rights Era: 1978 to today[edit]
1978: Houston's Moody Park on the first anniversary of Joe Campos Torres death.
1980: Miami Riots (Miami, Florida)
1980: Chattanooga Riot (Chattanooga, Tennessee)
1984: Lawrence, Massachusetts Race Riot: A small scale riot centered at the intersection of Haverhill and railroad streets between working class whites and Hispanics; several buildings were destroyed by Molotov cocktails; August 8, 1984.[46]
1989: Overtown Riot (Miami, FL) In a reaction to the shooting of a black motorcyclist by a Hispanic police officer in the predominately black community of Overtown in Miami, residents rioted for two nights. The officer was later found guilty of manslaughter.
1991: Crown Heights riot (Crown Heights neighborhood, Brooklyn, New York City)
1992: Los Angeles Riots (Los Angeles, California): In a reaction to the acquittal of all four LAPD officers involved in the videotaped beating of Rodney King and the murder of Latasha Harlins; riots broke out mainly involving black youths in the black neighborhoods and shop owners in Korean neighborhoods, but overall rioting was mainly to get out the frustrations of the racial groups over the racial tensions that were building in the South Central neighborhood for years[citation needed].
1996: St. Petersburg Riots (St. Petersburg, Florida): After Officer Jim Knight stopped 18 yr. old Tyron Lewis for speeding, his car lurched forward and Knight fired his weapon, fatally wounding the black teenager. Riots broke out and lasted for about 2 days.[citation needed]
2001: Cincinnati riots (Cincinnati, Ohio): In a reaction to the fatal shooting of an unarmed young black male, Timothy Thomas by Cincinnati police officer Steven Roach, during a foot pursuit, riots broke out over the span of a few days.
2003: Benton Harbor riots (Benton Harbor, Michigan)
2005: 2005 Toledo Riot (Toledo, Ohio): A race riot that broke out after a planned Neo-Nazi protest march through a black neighborhood.
2006: Fontana High School riot (Fontana, California): Riot involving about 500 Latino and black students[47]
2006: Prison Race Riots (California): A war between Latino and black prison gangs set off a series of riots across California[48][49]
2008: Locke High School riot[50] (Los Angeles, California)
2009: 2009 Oakland Riots (Oakland, California): Peaceful protests turned into rioting after the fatal shooting of an unarmed black man, Oscar Grant, by a BART transit policeman.
2014: Shooting of Michael Brown, later riots break out after the shooting was believed to be racially motivated.
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Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

I wasn't aware of any of these except the Rodney King beating and the riots that followed. The atmosphere seems to have worsened as time has gone on, though, but I suppose that's to be expected as many children are growing up hearing about all the resentment that has built up over the years about racial "inequality." What was the excuse for all the looting, raping and lawlessness after Katrina, though? That was an act of nature, and the black mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin, made the decision not to use the school buses to help get people out in time. Is it only the legal system in this country that they object to, or what is the problem? We are all expected to follow the law, and if we don't, no matter what color we are, we will suffer the consequences! :confused:
 
GhostlyJoe said:
When did the Rams receivers disrupt, vandalize and cry?
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My apologies, I misunderstood who were the protesters you were referring to, so my bad. On the other hand I really doubt that the players in question really understand the issue.

Surely you're not equating this peaceful protest with the riots in Missouri?
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Of course not as I said my mistake.

And no, I don't think this about reopening the case in Mo., though surely many would welcome that.
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Yes many would rather see revenge than justice because that would validate their ignorant position.

This is about the larger issue of racial profiling and distrust between the community and the police force.
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That is a true problem and protests born out of ignorance will not do much for a real solution to that issue.
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Pero. :2wave:

I wasn't aware of any of these except the Rodney King beating and the riots that followed. The atmosphere seems to have worsened as time has gone on, though, but I suppose that's to be expected as many children are growing up hearing about all the resentment that has built up over the years about racial "inequality." What was the excuse for all the looting, raping and lawlessness after Katrina, though? That was an act of nature, and the black mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin, made the decision not to use the school buses to help get people out in time. Is it only the legal system in this country that they object to, or what is the problem? We are all expected to follow the law, and if we don't, no matter what color we are, we will suffer the consequences! :confused:
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what I remember about Katrina is all the pictures of those in water up to their wast carrying TV's, beer, stereo's and the like or toting it on a raft or boat. Not one was carry food or water. Katrina did the destruction for them, but the looting continued.

I would imagine what you say has something to do with it. It's been 160 years since the civil war ended. But there is still a lack of trust between some of the blacks and some of the whites. I think the mob mentality takes over at times. People do things that they would never even think of doing unless they become part of the mob. I read someplace on the web that there was 7,000 black on black homicides last year. I wonder where the outrage was for those. Or is it perfectly okay and accepted?

I'm like a fish out of water here, in the military which consisted of 46 years of my life there was never the animosity between the races. But if one showed some, we could discharge them, kick them out of the service. One can't do that in the civilian world.

Perhaps having a police force that looks like the community that it is protecting could be an answer. Having the police live in the community that it is the police force of may also help. I just don't know. One thing is for sure, we are still a divided nation when it comes to race. Perhaps our elected leaders have a lot to do with that with their divide and conquer strategy in search for votes. I have been ranting on that for quite a long while. Dividing us into groups, pitting one group against another and actually making one group hate another in the search for votes.

But I do believe Lincoln when he said, "A house divided can not stand." Right now it seems this nation is that house.
 
Common Sense from Chris Rock

 
GhostlyJoe said:
No. They want fair treatment by the police. This isn't about a pass for criminals. This is about not gunning down people in the street. Ferguson, in my opinion, is one of the leas egregious examples of reckless policing. We've had two such shooting in Ohio involving legal airsoft guns. This has to stop.

This is what people are protesting.

And another link
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Funny thing about statistics is that you can say anything you want with them.

Blacks make up 16% of the US population yet commit 49% of all homicides. Should we level that against all black people?

Should we be rioting in the streets and burning down businesses whenever a black person isn't indicted for murder because "hey, look at all the other black murderers! How can this one be innocent!?"

The trouble is that the Mike Brown shooting and the response to it follows precisely that same monstrous logic. "Hey, cops murder black people. Darryl Wilson is a cop! Therefore, Darryl Wilson is guilty of murder, forget the evidence!"
 
tres borrachos said:
The St. Louis Rams’ ‘Hands Up, Don’t Shoot’ Protest - The Daily Fix - WSJ

<snip>




I don't blame the St. Louis PD. WTF? It was proven that Brown was not shot with his hands up in surrender contrary to what his little sidekick in the convenience store robbery claimed - and which people have clung on to as if it were true.
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Actually, no such thing was proven. The only thing that was "proven" in Ferguson was that the GJ did not make a recommendation that charges should be filed. Everything else is conjecture. If you recognize that there is controversy about the Ferguson outcome, everything else makes sense. If, however, because you believe one way and can't see how others can believe another way (including the entire history between the St Louis police and the black community well before anyone ever heard of Brown), then you have no hope of understanding why the St Louis players protested.

tres borrachos said:
I'll bet these guys would call the St. Louis PD in a second if there big fancy houses were being robbed.
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Probably quite begrudgingly as there have no other choices.

tres borrachos said:
The PD's statement is here, and it is indeed "fiery"

SLPOA condemns Rams display
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There cluelessness was well documented a year ago and especially since August. Anytime they have spoken or acted since August nothing by drivel as emerged from their lips. They should collectively "man-up" and just shut-up and let the protest happened. They are not without sin in their brutal reputation in the black community.

tres borrachos said:
Protest is great. Support your cause. I'd love to see the Rams support some causes that are important to me and lots of others too, like animal abuse and elder abuse. But if they did do it where the protest could be seen, I would hope they would be honest about what happened and not feed into the rhetoric and propaganda as they did on Sunday.
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Sorry, but protesting Unequal Justice Under the Law and Police brutality may not be important to you (as you seem completely oblivious to the problem), but they are important to others and very worthy of their time. Again, this is not about one kid getting shot by a cop, its about a broader social issue that this one event has illuminated. I am sorry you don't see the bigger picture here.
 
Millionaire Athletes Act the Fool

Reagan was right.

Reagan on Victims.jpg
 
upsideguy said:
Actually, no such thing was proven. The only thing that was "proven" in Ferguson was that the GJ did not make a recommendation that charges should be filed. Everything else is conjecture. If you recognize that there is controversy about the Ferguson outcome, everything else makes sense. If, however, because you believe one way and can't see how others can believe another way (including the entire history between the St Louis police and the black community well before anyone ever heard of Brown), then you have no hope of understanding why the St Louis players protested.



Probably quite begrudgingly as there have no other choices.



There cluelessness was well documented a year ago and especially since August. Anytime they have spoken or acted since August nothing by drivel as emerged from their lips. They should collectively "man-up" and just shut-up and let the protest happened. They are not without sin in their brutal reputation in the black community.



Sorry, but protesting Unequal Justice Under the Law and Police brutality may not be important to you (as you seem completely oblivious to the problem), but they are important to others and very worthy of their time. Again, this is not about one kid getting shot by a cop, its about a broader social issue that this one event has illuminated. I am sorry you don't see the bigger picture here.
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Read the GJ testimony. In the end, the "witnesses" who said he had his hands up in surrender were either forced to admit they lied, or forced to admit they weren't even there. It's all available for your reading pleasure.

I am sorry that you refuse to see the facts.
 
tres borrachos said:
Read the GJ testimony. In the end, the "witnesses" who said he had his hands up in surrender were either forced to admit they lied, or forced to admit they weren't even there. It's all available for your reading pleasure.

I am sorry that you refuse to see the facts.
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Sorry, there was no trial. No proper vetting of witnesses, which would include cross-examination, and thus nothing real proven (or disproven). We only know that the Grand Jury did not believe there was sufficient evidence to indict.

What do the newly released witness statements tell us about the Michael Brown shooting? | PBS NewsHour

I appreciate that you feel a certain way, but at least be intellectually honest enough to respect the opinions of those that do not feel all of the facts are known... and thus respect the rights of black football players, many of whom grew up in inner-cities with their own individual experiences with the police. Some of that direct experience might be consistent with the perception of Brown's interaction.
 
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tres borrachos said:
Read the GJ testimony. In the end, the "witnesses" who said he had his hands up in surrender were either forced to admit they lied, or forced to admit they weren't even there. It's all available for your reading pleasure.

I am sorry that you refuse to see the facts.
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from the PBS cite provided by upsideguy:
Here’s a breakdown of the data we found:

More than 50 percent of the witness statements said that Michael Brown held his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. (16 out of 29 such statements)
Only five witness statements said that Brown reached toward his waist during the confrontation leading up to Wilson shooting him to death.
More than half of the witness statements said that Brown was running away from Wilson when the police officer opened fire on the 18-year-old, while fewer than one-fifth of such statements indicated that was not the case.
There was an even split among witness statements that said whether or not Wilson fired upon Brown when the 18-year-old had already collapsed onto the ground.
Only six witness statements said that Brown was kneeling when Wilson opened fire on him. More than half of the witness statements did not mention whether or not Brown was kneeling.
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still does not appear that the witness testimony was such that it could be concluded wilson did nothing illegal, thereby necessitating a trial to ferret out the truth
 
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