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Justices weigh limits of free speech over Internet

j-mac

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Anthony Elonis claimed he was just kidding when he posted a series of graphically violent rap lyrics on Facebook about killing his estranged wife, shooting up a kindergarten class and attacking an FBI agent.But his wife didn't see it that way. Neither did a federal jury.
Elonis, who's from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, was convicted of violating a federal law that makes it a crime to threaten another person.
In a far-reaching case that probes the limits of free speech over the Internet, the Supreme Court on Monday was to consider whether Elonis' Facebook posts, and others like it, deserve protection under the First Amendment.
[FONT=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) This Oct. 7, 2014, file photo shows a police officer dwarfed amid the marble...
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Elonis argues that his lyrics were simply a crude and spontaneous form of expression that should not be considered threatening if he did not really mean it. The government says it does not matter what Elonis intended, and that the true test of a threat is whether his words make a reasonable person feel threatened.One post about his wife said, "There's one way to love you but a thousand ways to kill you. I'm not going to rest until your body is a mess, soaked in blood and dying from all the little cuts."
The case has drawn widespread attention from free-speech advocates who say comments on Facebook, Twitter and other social media can be hasty, impulsive and easily misinterpreted. They point out that a message on Facebook intended for a small group could be taken out of context when viewed by a wider audience.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20141130/us--supreme_court-facebook_threats-54ede78cfd.html

Not sure what you all think of this, but my personal feeling is that the authorities should stay the hell out of monitoring what people say on mediums like Facebook unless they have some kind of specific threat to follow up...As much as I disagree with bullies, and thugs on the internet, I must defend their right to free speech because someday it may be extended further down in ugly ways...Thoughts?
 
Not sure what you all think of this, but my personal feeling is that the authorities should stay the hell out of monitoring what people say on mediums like Facebook unless they have some kind of specific threat to follow up..

What he said on FB was a threat, especially from the victim's perspective. He also continued the same behavior after being confronted by authorities. He's got no excuses.

As much as I disagree with bullies, and thugs on the internet, I must defend their right to free speech because someday it may be extended further down in ugly ways...Thoughts?

Free speech has its limitations, and threatening/encouraging violence should certainly be one of them, whether it be on the internet or on a street corner.
 
Not sure what you all think of this, but my personal feeling is that the authorities should stay the hell out of monitoring what people say on mediums like Facebook unless they have some kind of specific threat to follow up...As much as I disagree with bullies, and thugs on the internet, I must defend their right to free speech because someday it may be extended further down in ugly ways...Thoughts?

Agreed- it's dicey. I can see both sides of the issue, but my inclination is to come down on the side of protected speech rights, unless there is an actual physical threat exhibited by action.
 
This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't instances for the FBI and other Law Enforcement agencies that track the Internet. When do you as a Police Officer act when someone makes a threat to kill someone else over the internet? Do we act before hand and trample on the First Amendment right for someone to say "There's one way to love you but a thousand ways to kill you. I'm not going to rest until your body is a mess, soaked in blood and dying from all the little cuts." When he admits it was a bone headed thing to say, or do we ignore posts like these and as a result a murder happens that could have been prevented.

It's tough to gauge and even tougher to decide on where we draw the line on Government agencies spying on Facebook and Twitter posts. I don't believe in censorship, yet at the same time if we have the ability to deter something as horrific as a murder shouldn't we use it? Personally, I don't know where to stand on the issue.
 
He loses and I really hope the opinion states something to the effect of: "Only a complete imbecile would remain FB friends with their ex, especially when they are intending to talk **** about them on FB".

Social media is used in divorce cases to the detriment of somebody on a regular basis, especially Facebook.
 
Not sure what you all think of this, but my personal feeling is that the authorities should stay the hell out of monitoring what people say on mediums like Facebook unless they have some kind of specific threat to follow up...As much as I disagree with bullies, and thugs on the internet, I must defend their right to free speech because someday it may be extended further down in ugly ways...Thoughts?

It is a fascinating case, though your article overplays the internet aspect. At issue is not free speech over the internet, but whether intent is required for something to be a threat. Basically, Elonis says he did not intend for his lyrics to be a threat towards his ex-wife, and therefore he did not do anything wrong. The state says that intent does not matter, that if an average person looking objectively at the words would find them threatening, then it is a threat. The medium the threats where transmitted on is only relevant as context.

And I am really torn on that issue. I can see how his ex-wife would be legitimately scared reading those lyrics he posted and feel threatened. However, why should some one be subject to jail time and other penalties because some one else misunderstood his intent? I think for me what this comes down to is when in doubt, you err on the side of the right. Rights are good things, but all can and will be used to do bad things. Westboro Baptist church is a vile group, but they still have the right to free speech and to do vile things which cause distress to others. In this case, Elonis's lyrics where vile and hurtful, but absent clear evidence he actually intended them to be threatening, he should have the right to be vile and hurtful.

Some further reading on the case from the always excellent SCOTUSBlog: Drawing a line between therapy and threats: In Plain English : SCOTUSblog

And SCOTUSBlog's case page: Elonis v. United States : SCOTUSblog
 
What he said on FB was a threat, especially from the victim's perspective. He also continued the same behavior after being confronted by authorities. He's got no excuses.



Free speech has its limitations, and threatening/encouraging violence should certainly be one of them, whether it be on the internet or on a street corner.

Slow down there, Skippy. That same speech (lyrics?) which resulted in the conviction of one man did not result in the conviction of those that wrote them, performed them in public or who continue to profit from their sale. When we allow folks to offer "dead or alive" bounties and to say "burn the bitch down", which are far more "disturbing" should they incite others to act on them, then why arrest one man for repeating (quoting?), otherwise completely legal, song lyrics?
 
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It is a fascinating case, though your article overplays the internet aspect. At issue is not free speech over the internet, but whether intent is required for something to be a threat. Basically, Elonis says he did not intend for his lyrics to be a threat towards his ex-wife, and therefore he did not do anything wrong. The state says that intent does not matter, that if an average person looking objectively at the words would find them threatening, then it is a threat. The medium the threats where transmitted on is only relevant as context.

And I am really torn on that issue. I can see how his ex-wife would be legitimately scared reading those lyrics he posted and feel threatened. However, why should some one be subject to jail time and other penalties because some one else misunderstood his intent? I think for me what this comes down to is when in doubt, you err on the side of the right. Rights are good things, but all can and will be used to do bad things. Westboro Baptist church is a vile group, but they still have the right to free speech and to do vile things which cause distress to others. In this case, Elonis's lyrics where vile and hurtful, but absent clear evidence he actually intended them to be threatening, he should have the right to be vile and hurtful.

Some further reading on the case from the always excellent SCOTUSBlog: Drawing a line between therapy and threats: In Plain English : SCOTUSblog

And SCOTUSBlog's case page: Elonis v. United States : SCOTUSblog

It goes far beyond that; these lyrics did not originate with that posting yet others did originate those lyrics, copyrighted them and continue to market them. Why is it illegal for Mr. X to say what others may legally say and even to profit from saying? Where these lyrics only "offensive and threatening" because Mrs. X does not like Mr. X? Why did Mrs. X not sue the originator of those words and only sought to stop Mr. X from repeating them?
 
What he said on FB was a threat, especially from the victim's perspective. He also continued the same behavior after being confronted by authorities. He's got no excuses.
Excuses?
The first Amendment needs no excuses.


Free speech has its limitations, and threatening/encouraging violence should certainly be one of them, whether it be on the internet or on a street corner.
Limitations are in place to prevent a good chance of harm from occurring.
There was no chance of harm occurring here as there was no intent.




To the topic.
Intent should matter.
 
It goes far beyond that; these lyrics did not originate with that posting yet others did originate those lyrics, copyrighted them and continue to market them. Why is it illegal for Mr. X to say what others may legally say and even to profit from saying? Where these lyrics only "offensive and threatening" because Mrs. X does not like Mr. X? Why did Mrs. X not sue the originator of those words and only sought to stop Mr. X from repeating them?

Context. Those lyrics at some unnamed individual are not threats. Aimed at an individual, they could very well be under the law. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, except/b] when there really is a fire. Same word, but in two different situations, different liability. Context is always important.

In this case I don't to my mind think the context is enough to make those words actual threats, but just because they are actual song lyrics does not impact on my reasoning.
 
This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't instances for the FBI and other Law Enforcement agencies that track the Internet. When do you as a Police Officer act when someone makes a threat to kill someone else over the internet? Do we act before hand and trample on the First Amendment right for someone to say "There's one way to love you but a thousand ways to kill you. I'm not going to rest until your body is a mess, soaked in blood and dying from all the little cuts." When he admits it was a bone headed thing to say, or do we ignore posts like these and as a result a murder happens that could have been prevented.

It's tough to gauge and even tougher to decide on where we draw the line on Government agencies spying on Facebook and Twitter posts. I don't believe in censorship, yet at the same time if we have the ability to deter something as horrific as a murder shouldn't we use it? Personally, I don't know where to stand on the issue.

Agreed. Ask a woman who has experienced genuine, bona fide stalking how she feels that in order for police to do anything about somebody threatening her, they have to wait for the stalker to do something to her first.
 
Context. Those lyrics at some unnamed individual are not threats. Aimed at an individual, they could very well be under the law. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, except/b] when there really is a fire. Same word, but in two different situations, different liability. Context is always important.

In this case I don't to my mind think the context is enough to make those words actual threats, but just because they are actual song lyrics does not impact on my reasoning.


A social site doesn't confer some sort of magical get-out-of-jail card for all types of communication either.
 
Context. Those lyrics at some unnamed individual are not threats. Aimed at an individual, they could very well be under the law. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, except/b] when there really is a fire. Same word, but in two different situations, different liability. Context is always important.

In this case I don't to my mind think the context is enough to make those words actual threats, but just because they are actual song lyrics does not impact on my reasoning.


How is what anyone posts on the internet determined to be "aimed" at one person? There must be far more to this case than facebook postings under an assumed (made up?) ID.
 
What if the person making the questionable statements in not even within the confines of the US?

If the person isn't in the US, I guess that's up to the severity of the threat and the US's relations with the country that person is in. I don't know, and it's a good question.
 
How is what anyone posts on the internet determined to be "aimed" at one person? There must be far more to this case than facebook postings under an assumed (made up?) ID.

There is more to the case. He was fired from his job at an amusement park for posting a photoshop image of his holding a knife to the neck of a female employee there who had accused him of sexual harassment at work. AS I understand it, he made it clear who he was referring to, though I have not seen the postings or know all the details.
 
What if the person making the questionable statements in not even within the confines of the US?

Even using the standard used in this case, that an average person would reasonably assume it is a threat, it would make it much harder to show it as a threat since the person is at a significant distance.
 
I think the ruling will end up with something like Citizens United. If you have money, you will get the faster lane on the internet. After all, corporations is people, folks.
 
Not sure what you all think of this, but my personal feeling is that the authorities should stay the hell out of monitoring what people say on mediums like Facebook unless they have some kind of specific threat to follow up...As much as I disagree with bullies, and thugs on the internet, I must defend their right to free speech because someday it may be extended further down in ugly ways...Thoughts?

Why should the medium matter? Are threatening words posted on the internet any different from the same words sent via mail, spoken over the phone, or delivered in person?

Unless, of course, you take Marshall McLuhan's words to heart.
 
Why should the medium matter? Are threatening words posted on the internet any different from the same words sent via mail, spoken over the phone, or delivered in person?

Unless, of course, you take Marshall McLuhan's words to heart.

The medium isn't at issue in the case. The issue before SCOTUS is whether intent is required for something to be a threat. The medium kinda matters in that it provides context(yelling "I am going to kill you" to some one's face is more threatening than posting it on facebook kinda thing), and that the laws he was specifically charged with breaking involved making threats over interstate commerce communications(ie, the internets). The only question SCOTUS is looking at is the intent question.
 
Context. Those lyrics at some unnamed individual are not threats. Aimed at an individual, they could very well be under the law. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, except/b] when there really is a fire. Same word, but in two different situations, different liability. Context is always important.

In this case I don't to my mind think the context is enough to make those words actual threats, but just because they are actual song lyrics does not impact on my reasoning.
Not the same as yelling fire in a theater (an antiquated law).
Yelling fire in a theater when it was made illegal had a great propensity to cause actual harm and death because of the conditions.
Simply threatening another does not have such a propensity.
 
Not the same as yelling fire in a theater (an antiquated law).
Yelling fire in a theater when it was made illegal had a great propensity to cause actual harm and death because of the conditions.
Simply threatening another does not have such a propensity.

I am not suggesting it is the same. I was using it as the classic limit to free speech example, and how context plays a role in it.
 
I am not suggesting it is the same. I was using it as the classic limit to free speech example, and how context plays a role in it.

And I was pointing out that your example doesn't fit because of the propensity of actual harm to occur, which is the reason that limit on speech is in place, does not exist in simply making threatening speech. :shrug:
 
The medium isn't at issue in the case. The issue before SCOTUS is whether intent is required for something to be a threat. The medium kinda matters in that it provides context(yelling "I am going to kill you" to some one's face is more threatening than posting it on facebook kinda thing), and that the laws he was specifically charged with breaking involved making threats over interstate commerce communications(ie, the internets). The only question SCOTUS is looking at is the intent question.

So, the justices are weighing the limits of free speech, not just free speech over the internet.
 
So, the justices are weighing the limits of free speech, not just free speech over the internet.

Basically correct. The article headline in the OP is somewhat misleading.
 
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