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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

Re: The next Ferguson ?

Colt also makes the Rail Gun, but it looks somewhat different than the gun the boy was shot with.

Yes, there are. Find me a Long Slide with a rail. Sure, may be some custom guns out there like that. But not something you will find every day.

This kid had a very very realistic, mag fed 1911 style hand gun. If you do not do EXACTLY what officers tell you to do. You may very well be shot.

How many people live in your head? That's what I've been saying, and what you've been arguing against.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

How many people live in your head? That's what I've been saying, and what you've been arguing against.

No, I said find me a LONG SLIDE 1911 6" and above with a rail ahead of the trigger guard. Colts Rail Gun is a 5".
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

When are schools going to start teaching kids the reality that if they are not conditioned to do EXACTLY and INSTANTLY anything anyone who says they are police or look like might be police they might get immediately gunned down or beaten to death for resisting?

How about just some common sense for the kids, that they may pass on to their parents.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Every Colt Rail I have seen so far has been stainless steel.

Went to Colts website and there is a blued version, but 5" is as long as they make. So it still dont fit the pic of the gun shown as the kids.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Went to Colts website and there is a blued version, but 5" is as long as they make. So it still dont fit the pic of the gun shown as the kids.
As I understand it, the issue is that the gun was close enough to a real gun, if not exactly like one, to appear as a threat.

It is also my understanding that the police in this case very likely acted as they were trained to in the situation they were given. Could be wrong given that I know little about police training in general, let alone specifically in this case.

If the contention here is that the actions of the police were not correct, then perhaps an examination of standard practices and the like is in order.

That said, walking around a park threatening people with a gun that appeared real (except under close inspection) was a stupid thing to do.

Basically it's another case of stupidity meeting incomplete understanding....and with guns involved it seems to often end with death for one or more parties.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

As I understand it, the issue is that the gun was close enough to a real gun, if not exactly like one, to appear as a threat.

It is also my understanding that the police in this case very likely acted as they were trained to in the situation they were given. Could be wrong given that I know little about police training in general, let alone specifically in this case.

If the contention here is that the actions of the police were not correct, then perhaps an examination of standard practices and the like is in order.

That said, walking around a park threatening people with a gun that appeared real (except under close inspection) was a stupid thing to do.

Basically it's another case of stupidity meeting incomplete understanding....and with guns involved it seems to often end with death for one or more parties.

I understand that. We just got on what that gun "looked like" vs what it really was. I have a good size 1911 collection and in a split second it would fool me.
I dont see what the cops did wrong?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I understand that. We just got on what that gun "looked like" vs what it really was. I have a good size 1911 collection and in a split second it would fool me.
I dont see what the cops did wrong?

Bottom line, that toy gun didn't have the orange tips. I think cops are trained to look for that, and if they don't see it, then they are automatically going to assume it's a real gun. I don't think it even comes into their mind "what gun is it".
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Bottom line, that toy gun didn't have the orange tips. I think cops are trained to look for that, and if they don't see it, then they are automatically going to assume it's a real gun. I don't think it even comes into their mind "what gun is it".
Frankly I'm not sure training them to try and ID whether a weapon is real or fake is a good idea, given the available near-identical replicas that only have that orange tip identifying them as fake.

Requiring such ID time might just be what determines whether the police officer in question lives or dies.

If we require that kind of identification time we would then have to require police wear heavy protective gear at all times as well, so as to survive the first few shots while they ID'd the weapon. And that would require heavier vehicles to carry them around.
I'm thinking exoskeleton armor support systems at this rate...


Edit: Unless, of course, you want to require that police willingly die in order to identify a weapon, so as to avoid killing a civilian pulling a weapon out.

You're going to have serious recruitment issues if that is the policy. Not to mention lack of experience due to few officers surviving long if they actually encounter such a situation.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Frankly I'm not sure training them to try and ID whether a weapon is real or fake is a good idea, given the available near-identical replicas that only have that orange tip identifying them as fake.

Requiring such ID time might just be what determines whether the police officer in question lives or dies.

If we require that kind of identification time we would then have to require police wear heavy protective gear at all times as well, so as to survive the first few shots while they ID'd the weapon. And that would require heavier vehicles to carry them around.
I'm thinking exoskeleton armor support systems at this rate...


Edit: Unless, of course, you want to require that police willingly die in order to identify a weapon, so as to avoid killing a civilian pulling a weapon out.

You're going to have serious recruitment issues if that is the policy. Not to mention lack of experience due to few officers surviving long if they actually encounter such a situation.

I don't really think there's a difference between the time it takes to id and object is a gun, and the time it take to see an orange piece on it, is really that far off. I mean it's not liek the cops zooms in on just the handle, and then slowly works his way up the barrel of the gun until he notices an orange tip

.... hmm that was oddly sexual.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I don't really think there's a difference between the time it takes to id and object is a gun, and the time it take to see an orange piece on it, is really that far off. I mean it's not liek the cops zooms in on just the handle, and then slowly works his way up the barrel of the gun until he notices an orange tip

.... hmm that was oddly sexual.
No no, I get that. training them to ID an orange-tip weapon as fake is a good idea....up to the point that someone disguises a real weapon as fake...or knocks off the orange tip from a fake one.

What I'm saying is that people arguing that the police should have waited longer to ID the weapon as fake are wrong, and that the options I presented are less palatable than current state of affairs, I suspect.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

No no, I get that. training them to ID an orange-tip weapon as fake is a good idea....up to the point that someone disguises a real weapon as fake...or knocks off the orange tip from a fake one.

What I'm saying is that people arguing that the police should have waited longer to ID the weapon as fake are wrong, and that the options I presented are less palatable than current state of affairs, I suspect.

This may sound cold, or be a little sad, but the police are there to take those risks you know, so the average person doesn't have to. What I mean is that, a policeman's first duty is to protect and serve right? Then he really has to take every consideration when dealing with those he's suppose to be serving and protecting right? It's weird, and I could be wrong but it feels like in some situations, soldiers in foreign countries have stricter rules of engagement than police.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

This may sound cold, or be a little sad, but the police are there to take those risks you know, so the average person doesn't have to. What I mean is that, a policeman's first duty is to protect and serve right? Then he really has to take every consideration when dealing with those he's suppose to be serving and protecting right? It's weird, and I could be wrong but it feels like in some situations, soldiers in foreign countries have stricter rules of engagement than police.
Then it's time for power armor.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

In the past, basically every boy played with toy guns outside and none had red tips. Hell, a red tip doesn't even mean it's fake. Why were those kids of generations past routinely gunned down then too? Something's very wrong with that happening.

I assume you are asking why they weren't shot down in the past.. They were.. While I don't know how regularly, it happened.. Which is why they made laws requiring the red tips. I recall stories from when I was a kid.. and my dad letting me know to be careful when playing war outside..
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Then it's time for power armor.

This is going to sound harsh but, cops aren't worth that level of protection. Again though, I think there is a lot of things the community could do to police itself though that the cops wouldn't be needed.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I assume you are asking why they weren't shot down in the past.. They were.. While I don't know how regularly, it happened.. Which is why they made laws requiring the red tips. I recall stories from when I was a kid.. and my dad letting me know to be careful when playing war outside..

Honestly, you should treat a toy gun, especially a bb gun, as if it was a real one.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

This is going to sound harsh but, cops aren't worth that level of protection. Again though, I think there is a lot of things the community could do to police itself though that the cops wouldn't be needed.
The idea of the power armor in this case is less for the protection of police and more to give them time to analyse a situation, even under imminent threat of being shot - perhaps even during/after being shot.


But that's mainly bull****.

My point here is that if you require too much of the police, you won't have good police.
At the same time, if you require too little of the police, you won't have good police either.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

From the video that I saw, there was absolutely no discussion whatsoever.

That's what happens when the video has low FPS and no audio. The cruiser window was down on the passenger side.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

This is really a tragic story and I noticed the article didn't say how many rounds were fired at the boy.

While there are legal ways to rationalize a justification for the officer shooting, still, I don't like it. A lot. In the past, basically every boy played with toy guns outside and none had red tips. Hell, a red tip doesn't even mean it's fake. Why were those kids of generations past routinely gunned down then too? Something's very wrong with that happening.



90% of those guns we played with in the past didn't look real.


The one this kid had was an almost exact replica, replete with magazine.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Went to Colts website and there is a blued version, but 5" is as long as they make. So it still dont fit the pic of the gun shown as the kids.



Oh, cops are supposed to be able to identify every gun on the market and how long they were?



You do know there are many makers of 1911 these days,
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Yes, I went to the Colt site and said they make them in Blue finish, but they only make them in 5". The gun the kid had looked like it was at least a 6" barrel. Other wise known as a "Long Slide".



Dude, there are so many places you can get a 1911.


I have 2 from Kimber a desert warrior, and an ultra eclipse II

Wilson combat would build you whatever you wanted.
 
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