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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

Re: The next Ferguson ?

Absolutely NOT a good shoot. Two seconds pass between the time police arrive until the time he is down. The police have to make judgment calls, true. But they have to be held accountable for bad calls. They didn't have time to properly assess the situation or the threat. Police are paid to put themselves in harm's way and protect people like this boy; not fire first based on assumptions. Someone needs to made accountable for this child's death.

Absolutely not true. I wish I knew what their job description really is because public safety is not mandatory. It has been affirmed by the courts that law enforcement has no obligation to put itself in harm's way.
There are several decisions.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I have some pellet pistols-that from 10 feet away, I cannot tell apart from the firearms they copy

only the size of the bore is a give away and since lots of service pistols have 22 caliber training counterparts-that makes it even tougher

examples

KWC Tanfoglio Witness 1911 CO2 BB Pistol, Brown Grips. Air guns

Air Pistols: Beretta PX4 Storm

Smith & Wesson Smith & Wesson M&P, Black. Air guns - PyramydAir.com

I agree with you're assessment. There are many situations where a shooting like this is totally justified, but I think in this case the mistake was make before the decision to shoot ever had to be made. Was pulling up on and exiting the police car just feet from a suspected gun perp really a smart tactic given that (an I admit this is my assumption based on the tape) that no one else was in immediate danger. The cops also knew that he had this suspected gun in the presence of others and while he may have pointed it at people, he hadn't shot anyone, point being that that tells us a little about his state of mind. The dispatcher also knew the report came from a guy that felt safe enough (apparently) to sit well within the range of any .22 cal and up, but didn't feel like his life was in imminent danger as he stayed near by for at least several minutes?

Now I know it's easy to Monday morning QB this stuff, but this is what these guys are trained for, or perhaps haven't been properly trained?

Let's say we were the cops that arrived in the same scenario, you were in the divers side and I was your partner and I'm driving, I pull up and leave you fully exposed the perp as you exit the car. Now let's say this kid has a real gun and he wants to kill cops and he shoots you as you exit the vehicle. Given what you saw in the video, wouldn't you be pissed for being put in that position? Is there any logic to the way this situation was approached?

Even if we concede the shooting was justified, there were at least two precipitating events (the proximity of the officer to the perp as he exited the vehicle and the dispatcher not relaying the "might be a fake gun" report). Now having trained to become a cop in college (I later decided it wasn't for me), I've been on many ride-a-longs with police and I know what it feels like to spend 99.999% of you're time dealing with mundane stuff to suddenly being thrust into a dangerous situation (though I was never witness to a shooting, I did see some intense stuff), point is, I know that all guns have to be treated as real until proven otherwise, I'm just saying in this particular case not much was done to attempt to ascertain the situation.

It's kinda like dressing yourself in steak and walking through a lion pit and arguing about the logic of dressing in steak....Ummm....How about not walking through the lion pit?!?! It was the decision to walk though the pit that was the problem, not dressing in steak!
 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

Absolutely not true. I wish I knew what their job description really is because public safety is not mandatory. It has been affirmed by the courts that law enforcement has no obligation to put itself in harm's way.
There are several decisions.

You are correct. Sadly.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Shouldn't they have approached at a greater distance where they could have attempted communication with the suspect in order to gather greater intelligence...?

And maybe get shot themselves?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

If this is police protocol, then that alone is cause for protest. I want to know that police departments are responding to this rash of shootings with new protocols and new prevention measures. This "the cops did nothing wrong" that some are taking is horribly irresponsible.

So now cops don't have the right to protect their own lives as well as the lives of others?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

So now cops don't have the right to protect their own lives as well as the lives of others?

Whose life was in danger before the cops arrived?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

IMO Ferguson was a good shooting but I am not so sure about this one. It will be interesting to see what facts come out here.



"officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

“That’s when the officer fired,” he said.

Read more at Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police - Toledo Blade


was it a hunting ?


I doubt this will be a "Ferguson" response.

The two parts in bold pretty much make this a valid shooting. The kid did a stupid thing and unfortunately, it cost him his life. I would also like to find out why the kid had a fake gun without the orange safety indicator on in the first place. Also, why didn't the parents teach their kid to not do such an idiotic thing like reach for something after the cops tell you to put your hands up?

So much fail on the kid and the parents its unreal. In the words of Walter the puppet (Jeff Dunham), "Dumbasses".



they were stupid enough to be killed....can't see any difference between these comments and a medieval inquisitor's judgement
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

was it a hunting ?






they were stupid enough to be killed....can't see any difference between these comments and a medieval inquisitor's judgement

A good shooting as in a valid shooting
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I've watched the video a few times. In my opinion, both officers should face criminal charges. They brought all of the violence with them. They're fully responsible for that boy's death. They're judgment was tragically flawed. Manslaughter?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

And maybe get shot themselves?

Not much to work with there. Are you saying you agree with the way the police approached? You can't see the danger in the driver pulling up and forcing his partner and passenger to get out of the car only a few feet from a person who is reported to have a gun?

How does approaching from sayyyyyy 40'-50' lead to the police being shot?

The rules of the departments I've worked with is that you put yourself in danger before your partner....
 
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Re: The next Ferguson ?

So now cops don't have the right to protect their own lives as well as the lives of others?

While I'm going to humor you, this response feels more like a troll post (meant to incite people to emotional response) rather than a well thought out response to the situation in the video....
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?



Again, where was the time for the boy to process what's happening? They rolled up and shot him dead.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

And maybe get shot themselves?

So, what's the standard then? Police can shoot anyone carrying a gun around in an open carry state because they think there's a possibility they'll be in danger?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

When did the police see the tip of the BB gun? Why does it matter if the tip was removed if the tip was never seen by the police?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?



Again, where was the time for the boy to process what's happening? They rolled up and shot him dead.
They rolled up on a scene were it was reported there was a man with a gun pointing it at people. Rather than park a few hundred miles away and risk having a potentially dangerous man with a gun on the loose, they pulled up to the gazebo. While they were pulling up to the gazebo, the guy got up, walked towards then, and pulled up his shirt in what sure looks like an attempt to reach for the weapon that they were told he had. Quick set of circumstance...no doubt.

You say 'processing' like he didnt know already that what he was doing was dangerous. His fried had told him what he was doing was stupid and could get him shot. His friend was right.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

They rolled up on a scene were it was reported there was a man with a gun pointing it at people. Rather than park a few hundred miles away and risk having a potentially dangerous man with a gun on the loose, they pulled up to the gazebo. While they were pulling up to the gazebo, the guy got up, walked towards then, and pulled up his shirt in what sure looks like an attempt to reach for the weapon that they were told he had. Quick set of circumstance...no doubt.

You say 'processing' like he didnt know already that what he was doing was dangerous. His fried had told him what he was doing was stupid and could get him shot. His friend was right.

I don't disagree that removing the orange tip was dangerous. That's not what I asked. The police never gave the boy a chance to do anything other than die. Also, they never saw the tip of the gun because he never withdrew it.

So, all of the talk about the orange tip is meaningless because the cop never saw the tip in the first place. He never withdrew the toy.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I don't disagree that removing the orange tip was dangerous. That's not what I asked. The police never gave the boy a chance to do anything other than die. Also, they never saw the tip of the gun because he never withdrew it.

So, all of the talk about the orange tip is meaningless because the cop never saw the tip in the first place. He never withdrew the toy.
Yeah. Cops aren't going to do ANYTHING else when they roll up on a scene where there is a man reported to have a gun and pointing at people other than shoot him when that person goes for what they have been told is a gun. Thats how that scenario is SUPPOSED to play out.

The kid was intentionally living the thug life pointing his gun at people trying to scare them. Theres a good news bad news response here. Good news is...it worked. Bad news is......it worked.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

You might be surprised to know that the Police Union have him in their sights due to a recent discipline action taken by the Chief against the officer that shot a mentally challenged homeless man, in a park, for trying to assault him. Don't know all the details but I am hearing very valid arguments from both sides.

Therein lies another problem. Back to the "Us and Them," perception discussed earlier. We are not the Taliban. They are not Seal Team 6. They instinctively "circle the wagons," when one of their own is on the carpet. Right or wrong. I understand why. They are, after all, a union. Their obligation is to the employee and not the management. But it would seem to me that a collective unit of good cops, as I believe them most to be, would work harder than anyone to rid the bad cops from their ranks. And I'm sure there's a unit for that as well. The public perception is that the line of the law goes from the Meter Maid, through the street cop, to the department heads, through the district's prosecution's office all the way to the bench. It's hard to trust that, this connected stream of professionals, or any stream of professionals for that matter, who instinctively "circle the wagons," could fairly approach such sensitive matters, concerning justice against their own connected stream, from the ground up, could render any punitive actions with any balance of fairness.

As mentioned earlier, it is automatically assumed that a police officer's word is always considered to be above your's or mine.

We need to work on this "Us and Them" perception. It's going to take equal effort from "us," and "them," to even hope that would work.
The problem with the anti-police rhetoric is the cases that are used to promote 'the cause'.
In Ferguson Mo, the actual witness testimony and forensic evidence supports the officer account that Mike Brown, a man that CLEALRY demonstrated violent tendencies less than 5 minutes before the incident with the cop was the aggreessor, attacked the cop, and ended up dying.

In Cleveland, a 12 year old used a gun to terrorize people at a park. He thought it was funny. His actions caused a concerned citizen to phone it in to the police. When the police arrived, the 12 year old can quite clearly be seen getting up, walking towards the cops, and reaching into his waistband for what the cops believed to be a gun (and in fact WAS A GUN...just not the 45 caliber weapon it was intended to look like). In both of these recent high profile cases, the evidence PROVES there is NOTHING inappropriate with the police response. So what exactly is the dialogue that needs to occur? Cops should not kill innocent people or stupid people should stop creating situations that cause a cop or any other reasonable citizen to act? We are having the wrong conversation.

Which is NOT to say there arent abuses. When the abuses occur, they should be identified. But when the protests and riots and assorted foolishness occurs over what is a legitimate police act? Well...its hard to hear the other concerns.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Yeah. Cops aren't going to do ANYTHING else when they roll up on a scene where there is a man reported to have a gun and pointing at people other than shoot him when that person goes for what they have been told is a gun. Thats how that scenario is SUPPOSED to play out.

The kid was intentionally living the thug life pointing his gun at people trying to scare them. Theres a good news bad news response here. Good news is...it worked. Bad news is......it worked.

Can you back that with anything? You denigrate a child as you bow down to violent authority. Shameful post.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

The problem with the anti-police rhetoric is the cases that are used to promote 'the cause'.
In Ferguson Mo, the actual witness testimony and forensic evidence supports the officer account that Mike Brown, a man that CLEALRY demonstrated violent tendencies less than 5 minutes before the incident with the cop was the aggreessor, attacked the cop, and ended up dying.

In Cleveland, a 12 year old used a gun to terrorize people at a park. He thought it was funny. His actions caused a concerned citizen to phone it in to the police. When the police arrived, the 12 year old can quite clearly be seen getting up, walking towards the cops, and reaching into his waistband for what the cops believed to be a gun (and in fact WAS A GUN...just not the 45 caliber weapon it was intended to look like). In both of these recent high profile cases, the evidence PROVES there is NOTHING inappropriate with the police response. So what exactly is the dialogue that needs to occur? Cops should not kill innocent people or stupid people should stop creating situations that cause a cop or any other reasonable citizen to act? We are having the wrong conversation.

Which is NOT to say there arent abuses. When the abuses occur, they should be identified. But when the protests and riots and assorted foolishness occurs over what is a legitimate police act? Well...its hard to hear the other concerns.

The evidence in this case clearly shows the police bringing all of the drama and all of the danger with them to that crime scene. Those cops belong in jail.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Can you back that with anything? You denigrate a child as you bow down to violent authority. Shameful post.
:lamo Of course I can. His friend knew what he was doing, told him to stop, warned him that it would cause a problem. Witnesses said he was intentionally pointing the weapon at others to scare them.
 
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