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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
How many times was the kid asked? What did the kid say? The dispatcher could be culpable in this too for failing to relay what the caller said.
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The kid grabbed it AFTER the officer told him to put his hands up. It doesn't matter how many times the officer said it, once the kid grabbed the weapon, what does "logic" dictate to you if you were a LEO?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
How many times was the kid asked? What did the kid say? The dispatcher could be culpable in this too for failing to relay what the caller said.
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Seems like you are looking to blame ANYONE other than the kid and his parents.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

LagerHead said:
What kind of moron calls 911 to report a kid playing with what he believes to be a toy? I hope that dip**** can sleep at night. I know I wouldn't be able to.
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He didnt believe it to be a toy. He stated he didnt know (and how could he? Have you seen the BB gun? It LOOKS like any other semi automatic pistol). What he said was "its probably fake...I dont know. But he is pointing it at people and scaring the **** out of them".
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

CRUE CAB said:
Seems like you are looking to blame ANYONE other than the kid and his parents.
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Do you think his parents contemplated such a situation? I think almost no parents would. The kid did something stupid, no one has argued that. Question is, did the cop have to shoot him?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

This sounds like a tragic case all the war around. I see little that could have prevented it from going down badly as it did.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Goshin said:
I was an officer.

If it was an adult, and I had any doubt, I'd shoot.

A 12yo, I'd try to give the benefit of the doubt as long as possible... yes even if it meant taking a greater risk that I might get shot.



Call me crazy, but I would have hated myself forever if I'd shot a 12yo with a toy gun. Even if he did act stupid.
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That is quite noble but this was also in a setting where others were at risk too. Officers are likely in body armor where bystanders are not. I respect your judgement but also respect the judgement of those officers on the scene - we all seem to agree that it was a judgement call.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
I'm beginning to think there are some LEO's out there that don't think their careers are complete unless they've dropped a perp.
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Basically man. This dude, Akai Gurley, was shot dead by a rookie cop when Gurley was just walking down a staircase in an apartment building.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

ttwtt78640 said:
That is quite noble but this was also in a setting where others were at risk too. Officers are likely in body armor where bystanders are not. I respect your judgement but also respect the judgement of those officers on the scene - we all seem to agree that it was a judgement call.
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When I was a cop, we were taught that we should NEVER question the judgment of the officers-on-the-scene... at least not where the public could hear, and not where the LT could hear it either.


Privately, yeah we talked about stuff, and we said "Yeah, that was a bad call."


Part of the problem with modern policing is that Officer Safety has grown more important than "to protect and serve".


Considering public safety, how safe was it having officers firing at a playground? I guess we're lucky it wasn't the NYPD, their hit-to-miss record is abominable...
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
Do you think his parents contemplated such a situation? I think almost no parents would. The kid did something stupid, no one has argued that. Question is, did the cop have to shoot him?
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Common sense should have dictated that putting a very realistic gun in your kids hands may have complications.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Goshin said:
I probably would not have called 911, at least not right away. I probably would have wandered over, seeming aimless, and took a closer look. Pretty sure from arm's length I could get a good idea whether it was a fake gun or real gun, if nothing else from how he held it (real guns are much heavier). Might have struck up a conversation, asked him "what ya got there kid, airsoft gun?"

But that's me, I'm like that. :shrug:
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Man it's too hard to tell anymore with Airsoft guns. Especially if the orange tip has been disguised, which is common. Later today I will post a pic of my real AR15 and my airsoft AR15 to see if you can guess which one is which. The weights are the same as well. They do this to give a realistic feel by adding weight to the rifle.

Our equipment for airsoft is never used outside of a designated field just for instances like this topic.

My point is be careful walking up to someone you think might be carrying an airsoft. Even long time gun enthusiast have a hard time figuring out what is real and what is airsoft.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
Question is, did the cop have to shoot him?
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The kid had an Airsoft pistol, with the safety cap removed. If you haven't seen them yet, they look exactly like a real gun.

If police reports are correct that the police ordered the kid to halt, and the kid reached for what looked like a real gun, then the shooting is justified. It's unfortunate, and the incident needs to be carefully reviewed, but it seems to be justified.

By the way, this is hardly a new thing. I've been hearing about cops shooting kids with fake or toy guns for as long as I can remember.

Here's a BJS report from 1990.... http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/tg-icep.pdf
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

CRUE CAB said:
Common sense should have dictated that putting a very realistic gun in your kids hands may have complications.
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So the implication it's the parents' fault, not the kid.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Also, I just want to add that Ohio is an open carry state. Obviously it is not legal for a 12 year old to have a gun, however I find it interesting that this kid (and John Crawford) was killed when in his state when the law states that it is legal to carry a gun openly.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Mr. Invisible said:
Also, I just want to add that Ohio is an open carry state. Obviously it is not legal for a 12 year old to have a gun, however I find it interesting that this kid (and John Crawford) was killed when in his state when the law states that it is legal to carry a gun openly.
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Brandishing a fire arm is illegal in every state. But that's beside the point I'm making, it was a 12 year old. They should have worked it a bit longer.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Dirt Racer said:
Man it's too hard to tell anymore with Airsoft guns. Especially if the orange tip has been disguised, which is common. Later today I will post a pic of my real AR15 and my airsoft AR15 to see if you can guess which one is which. The weights are the same as well. They do this to give a realistic feel by adding weight to the rifle.

Our equipment for airsoft is never used outside of a designated field just for instances like this topic.

My point is be careful walking up to someone you think might be carrying an airsoft. Even long time gun enthusiast have a hard time figuring out what is real and what is airsoft.
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Yeah. Like I said, if it was an adult, I wouldn't give him much if any benefit of the doubt.

A 12yo, I'd take a little risk to try to avoid shooting him, if circumstances permitted.


Bottom line, I wasn't there so maybe I shouldn't judge harshly.... but it is a pity this happened, and I feel that it is symptomatic of a shoot-first mentality brought on by Officer Safety becoming more important than Public Safety.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
Brandishing a fire arm is illegal in every state. But that's beside the point I'm making, it was a 12 year old. They should have worked it a bit longer.
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Yes, police officers should "wait" until the suspect fires a weapon that them right?

In many urban cities, gang members hire children to do drug running and kill. Are you seriously saying that a 12 year old is incapable of killing someone and that the officers should wait until a weapon is actually fired on them?
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

TheNextEra said:
Yes, police officers should "wait" until the suspect fires a weapon that them right?

In many urban cities, gang members hire children to do drug running and kill. Are you seriously saying that a 12 year old is incapable of killing someone and that the officers should wait until a weapon is actually fired on them?
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So we had a gang drug deal going on? Where are we going with this?
 
lifeisshort said:
IMO Ferguson was a good shooting but I am not so sure about this one. It will be interesting to see what facts come out here.



"officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

“That’s when the officer fired,” he said.

Read more at Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police - Toledo Blade
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How many people with fake guns have the cops already shot this year? They've already shot at least one kid, there was that story several months ago about that. They shot the older dude in Walmart, I think it was too. The precedent is established, they don't need to check or verify potential threat. If you have a fake gun, they can shoot you dead.
 
Ikari said:
How many people with fake guns have the cops already shot this year? They've already shot at least one kid, there was that story several months ago about that. They shot the older dude in Walmart, I think it was too. The precedent is established, they don't need to check or verify potential threat. If you have a fake gun, they can shoot you dead.
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When Son Numbah One started driving and going out on his own some, I had to have that dreaded conversation with him: I told him that in any interactions with the police, he had to:

1. Keep mouth shut as much as possible.
2. Assume they are EAGER to Tazer or shoot him dead and be very very careful not to give them an excuse to do so.
3. Not trust a damn thing they say because they lie a lot.


Hated to do that. Felt that I had to.


I guess these days we'd better have that talk when they're 9....
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

American said:
So we had a gang drug deal going on? Where are we going with this?
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I'm saying just because he was 12 years old, doesn't mean a 12 year old isn't capable of killing. A cop in the field seeing a suspect who is 12 years old grabbing what the officer thinks is a weapon is going to shoot. Hesitation means death in that situation if the kid had a REAL gun and was going to fire.

THIS 12-year old obviously wasn't going to kill, but that is hindsight 20/20 at this point. The officer didn't know that.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

I wonder if he "grabbed" or simply reached to pull it from his waistband. I also wonder why the police chief repeatedly described a 12 year old child as "the young man" at the press conference. Damage limitation? This is a police department that fired 130 shots during a lengthy car chase involving 60 police cruisers and 100 officers, which ended with two deaths.
 
Goshin said:
When Son Numbah One started driving and going out on his own some, I had to have that dreaded conversation with him: I told him that in any interactions with the police, he had to:

1. Keep mouth shut as much as possible.
2. Assume they are EAGER to Tazer or shoot him dead and be very very careful not to give them an excuse to do so.
3. Not trust a damn thing they say because they lie a lot.


Hated to do that. Felt that I had to.


I guess these days we'd better have that talk when they're 9....
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It's unfortunate that the Police have become like that too. They've broken all the trust with the People and then wonder why the People in general will not cooperate with them. They're starting to KGB it up too much.

Police are great, and necessary, and the job is beyond tough. But we need GOOD cops, we need cops that serve the People and their communities; not the power of central government nor the delusions of grandure that the officer himself may have. We need to protect the good cops out there, but we also must punish the bad. And like all government, the power of the police must be limited and controlled.
 
Ikari said:
How many people with fake guns have the cops already shot this year? They've already shot at least one kid, there was that story several months ago about that. They shot the older dude in Walmart, I think it was too. The precedent is established, they don't need to check or verify potential threat. If you have a fake gun, they can shoot you dead.
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How many officers have died in the line of duty from shootings? Sorry but if you are going to grab a gun (fake or not) after an officer tells you to put your hands up, you are an idiot. There is a time and place to challenge authority and in the right way. This wasn't one of those times.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

TheNextEra said:
I'm saying just because he was 12 years old, doesn't mean a 12 year old isn't capable of killing. A cop in the field seeing a suspect who is 12 years old grabbing what the officer thinks is a weapon is going to shoot. Hesitation means death in that situation if the kid had a REAL gun and was going to fire.

THIS 12-year old obviously wasn't going to kill, but that is hindsight 20/20 at this point. The officer didn't know that.
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Maybe. We don't know all the details. It's still a damn shame, and I think I would have risked myself a little more to give him another second to drop the thing.
 
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