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Thread: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Every Colt Rail I have seen so far has been stainless steel.
    Went to Colts website and there is a blued version, but 5" is as long as they make. So it still dont fit the pic of the gun shown as the kids.

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Went to Colts website and there is a blued version, but 5" is as long as they make. So it still dont fit the pic of the gun shown as the kids.
    As I understand it, the issue is that the gun was close enough to a real gun, if not exactly like one, to appear as a threat.

    It is also my understanding that the police in this case very likely acted as they were trained to in the situation they were given. Could be wrong given that I know little about police training in general, let alone specifically in this case.

    If the contention here is that the actions of the police were not correct, then perhaps an examination of standard practices and the like is in order.

    That said, walking around a park threatening people with a gun that appeared real (except under close inspection) was a stupid thing to do.

    Basically it's another case of stupidity meeting incomplete understanding....and with guns involved it seems to often end with death for one or more parties.
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As I understand it, the issue is that the gun was close enough to a real gun, if not exactly like one, to appear as a threat.

    It is also my understanding that the police in this case very likely acted as they were trained to in the situation they were given. Could be wrong given that I know little about police training in general, let alone specifically in this case.

    If the contention here is that the actions of the police were not correct, then perhaps an examination of standard practices and the like is in order.

    That said, walking around a park threatening people with a gun that appeared real (except under close inspection) was a stupid thing to do.

    Basically it's another case of stupidity meeting incomplete understanding....and with guns involved it seems to often end with death for one or more parties.
    I understand that. We just got on what that gun "looked like" vs what it really was. I have a good size 1911 collection and in a split second it would fool me.
    I dont see what the cops did wrong?

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    I understand that. We just got on what that gun "looked like" vs what it really was. I have a good size 1911 collection and in a split second it would fool me.
    I dont see what the cops did wrong?
    Bottom line, that toy gun didn't have the orange tips. I think cops are trained to look for that, and if they don't see it, then they are automatically going to assume it's a real gun. I don't think it even comes into their mind "what gun is it".

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Bottom line, that toy gun didn't have the orange tips. I think cops are trained to look for that, and if they don't see it, then they are automatically going to assume it's a real gun. I don't think it even comes into their mind "what gun is it".
    Frankly I'm not sure training them to try and ID whether a weapon is real or fake is a good idea, given the available near-identical replicas that only have that orange tip identifying them as fake.

    Requiring such ID time might just be what determines whether the police officer in question lives or dies.

    If we require that kind of identification time we would then have to require police wear heavy protective gear at all times as well, so as to survive the first few shots while they ID'd the weapon. And that would require heavier vehicles to carry them around.
    I'm thinking exoskeleton armor support systems at this rate...


    Edit: Unless, of course, you want to require that police willingly die in order to identify a weapon, so as to avoid killing a civilian pulling a weapon out.

    You're going to have serious recruitment issues if that is the policy. Not to mention lack of experience due to few officers surviving long if they actually encounter such a situation.
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Frankly I'm not sure training them to try and ID whether a weapon is real or fake is a good idea, given the available near-identical replicas that only have that orange tip identifying them as fake.

    Requiring such ID time might just be what determines whether the police officer in question lives or dies.

    If we require that kind of identification time we would then have to require police wear heavy protective gear at all times as well, so as to survive the first few shots while they ID'd the weapon. And that would require heavier vehicles to carry them around.
    I'm thinking exoskeleton armor support systems at this rate...


    Edit: Unless, of course, you want to require that police willingly die in order to identify a weapon, so as to avoid killing a civilian pulling a weapon out.

    You're going to have serious recruitment issues if that is the policy. Not to mention lack of experience due to few officers surviving long if they actually encounter such a situation.
    I don't really think there's a difference between the time it takes to id and object is a gun, and the time it take to see an orange piece on it, is really that far off. I mean it's not liek the cops zooms in on just the handle, and then slowly works his way up the barrel of the gun until he notices an orange tip

    .... hmm that was oddly sexual.

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I don't really think there's a difference between the time it takes to id and object is a gun, and the time it take to see an orange piece on it, is really that far off. I mean it's not liek the cops zooms in on just the handle, and then slowly works his way up the barrel of the gun until he notices an orange tip

    .... hmm that was oddly sexual.
    No no, I get that. training them to ID an orange-tip weapon as fake is a good idea....up to the point that someone disguises a real weapon as fake...or knocks off the orange tip from a fake one.

    What I'm saying is that people arguing that the police should have waited longer to ID the weapon as fake are wrong, and that the options I presented are less palatable than current state of affairs, I suspect.
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    No no, I get that. training them to ID an orange-tip weapon as fake is a good idea....up to the point that someone disguises a real weapon as fake...or knocks off the orange tip from a fake one.

    What I'm saying is that people arguing that the police should have waited longer to ID the weapon as fake are wrong, and that the options I presented are less palatable than current state of affairs, I suspect.
    This may sound cold, or be a little sad, but the police are there to take those risks you know, so the average person doesn't have to. What I mean is that, a policeman's first duty is to protect and serve right? Then he really has to take every consideration when dealing with those he's suppose to be serving and protecting right? It's weird, and I could be wrong but it feels like in some situations, soldiers in foreign countries have stricter rules of engagement than police.

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    This may sound cold, or be a little sad, but the police are there to take those risks you know, so the average person doesn't have to. What I mean is that, a policeman's first duty is to protect and serve right? Then he really has to take every consideration when dealing with those he's suppose to be serving and protecting right? It's weird, and I could be wrong but it feels like in some situations, soldiers in foreign countries have stricter rules of engagement than police.
    Then it's time for power armor.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    In the past, basically every boy played with toy guns outside and none had red tips. Hell, a red tip doesn't even mean it's fake. Why were those kids of generations past routinely gunned down then too? Something's very wrong with that happening.
    I assume you are asking why they weren't shot down in the past.. They were.. While I don't know how regularly, it happened.. Which is why they made laws requiring the red tips. I recall stories from when I was a kid.. and my dad letting me know to be careful when playing war outside..

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