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Thread: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

  1. #421
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I posted this somewhere else, but you brought it up and I thought it applied here as well. You ask why our police forces are becoming more militarized. Look at their applicants. I've been in the Marine Corps for going on 16 years. In only 2 of those have we not been at war. During those 16 years, I've seen many a Marine come and go. A lot of them, upon honorable discharge, apply to their local LE entity whether it be city/county/state/federal. Now, those are the guys on the street. Those are the guys that are planning operations. I'm not saying we have a bunch of testosterone laden, PTSD ridden vets running rampant on our streets. What I'm saying is you have a bunch of guys who's idea of policing is kicking the door in and taking down bad guys. Right or wrong, that's how they were trained and most LE units do nothing to change that idea. Add that to the fact that our federal gov't gives away MRAPs, body armor, optics, NVG's, etc like they're candy to whatever podunk police dept wants them and you have a militant police force. These aren't the end all be all answers to your questions, but I believe they are big factors.

    On a lighter note, I for real thought that black chick on the left side of the screen shot for your video was wearing a flower for a hat lol. I had to double take.

    Further edit: I didn't watch the video prior to posting my original statement. That guy is awesome. Great speech and so true. I said this before. If the black community would concentrate on fixing black on black crime, childbirth out of wedlock, low graduation rates, high unemployment rates, etc, etc within their ranks, the rest of the country might listen to them. But when they off themselves in record numbers and then turn on a single cop when he protects himself, no one wants to hear it. Is Michael Brown's life now more important because a white cop shot him vice the thousands of black people that were shot by other black people? I don't think so. Apparently they do.
    You might be surprised to know that the Police Union have him in their sights due to a recent discipline action taken by the Chief against the officer that shot a mentally challenged homeless man, in a park, for trying to assault him. Don't know all the details but I am hearing very valid arguments from both sides.

    Therein lies another problem. Back to the "Us and Them," perception discussed earlier. We are not the Taliban. They are not Seal Team 6. They instinctively "circle the wagons," when one of their own is on the carpet. Right or wrong. I understand why. They are, after all, a union. Their obligation is to the employee and not the management. But it would seem to me that a collective unit of good cops, as I believe them most to be, would work harder than anyone to rid the bad cops from their ranks. And I'm sure there's a unit for that as well. The public perception is that the line of the law goes from the Meter Maid, through the street cop, to the department heads, through the district's prosecution's office all the way to the bench. It's hard to trust that, this connected stream of professionals, or any stream of professionals for that matter, who instinctively "circle the wagons," could fairly approach such sensitive matters, concerning justice against their own connected stream, from the ground up, could render any punitive actions with any balance of fairness.

    As mentioned earlier, it is automatically assumed that a police officer's word is always considered to be above your's or mine.

    We need to work on this "Us and Them" perception. It's going to take equal effort from "us," and "them," to even hope that would work.
    Last edited by Captain America; 11-27-14 at 12:38 AM.

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  2. #422
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Really?!? That's all you saw?
    You saw something different?

  3. #423
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Have you ever been in a shootout?
    No. Have the officers on the tape every been in one? Because no one was firing back at them in this case.

  4. #424
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    BB guns tend to not look like actual firearms. Airsoft guns usually look like actual firearms. Of course that only means anything to people that know what actual firearms look like.
    I have some pellet pistols-that from 10 feet away, I cannot tell apart from the firearms they copy

    only the size of the bore is a give away and since lots of service pistols have 22 caliber training counterparts-that makes it even tougher

    examples

    KWC Tanfoglio Witness 1911 CO2 BB Pistol, Brown Grips. Air guns

    Air Pistols: Beretta PX4 Storm

    Smith & Wesson Smith & Wesson M&P, Black. Air guns - PyramydAir.com



  5. #425
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Yeah the kid had maybe 0.5 second to react to what was going on.
    Police story doesn't seem to match surveillance video.
    as is so often the case, sadly, maddingly
    Last edited by RogueWarrior; 11-27-14 at 01:40 AM.
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  6. #426
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Absolutely NOT a good shoot. Two seconds pass between the time police arrive until the time he is down. The police have to make judgment calls, true. But they have to be held accountable for bad calls. They didn't have time to properly assess the situation or the threat. Police are paid to put themselves in harm's way and protect people like this boy; not fire first based on assumptions. Someone needs to made accountable for this child's death.
    Absolutely not true. I wish I knew what their job description really is because public safety is not mandatory. It has been affirmed by the courts that law enforcement has no obligation to put itself in harm's way.
    There are several decisions.
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  7. #427
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I have some pellet pistols-that from 10 feet away, I cannot tell apart from the firearms they copy

    only the size of the bore is a give away and since lots of service pistols have 22 caliber training counterparts-that makes it even tougher

    examples

    KWC Tanfoglio Witness 1911 CO2 BB Pistol, Brown Grips. Air guns

    Air Pistols: Beretta PX4 Storm

    Smith & Wesson Smith & Wesson M&P, Black. Air guns - PyramydAir.com
    I agree with you're assessment. There are many situations where a shooting like this is totally justified, but I think in this case the mistake was make before the decision to shoot ever had to be made. Was pulling up on and exiting the police car just feet from a suspected gun perp really a smart tactic given that (an I admit this is my assumption based on the tape) that no one else was in immediate danger. The cops also knew that he had this suspected gun in the presence of others and while he may have pointed it at people, he hadn't shot anyone, point being that that tells us a little about his state of mind. The dispatcher also knew the report came from a guy that felt safe enough (apparently) to sit well within the range of any .22 cal and up, but didn't feel like his life was in imminent danger as he stayed near by for at least several minutes?

    Now I know it's easy to Monday morning QB this stuff, but this is what these guys are trained for, or perhaps haven't been properly trained?

    Let's say we were the cops that arrived in the same scenario, you were in the divers side and I was your partner and I'm driving, I pull up and leave you fully exposed the perp as you exit the car. Now let's say this kid has a real gun and he wants to kill cops and he shoots you as you exit the vehicle. Given what you saw in the video, wouldn't you be pissed for being put in that position? Is there any logic to the way this situation was approached?

    Even if we concede the shooting was justified, there were at least two precipitating events (the proximity of the officer to the perp as he exited the vehicle and the dispatcher not relaying the "might be a fake gun" report). Now having trained to become a cop in college (I later decided it wasn't for me), I've been on many ride-a-longs with police and I know what it feels like to spend 99.999% of you're time dealing with mundane stuff to suddenly being thrust into a dangerous situation (though I was never witness to a shooting, I did see some intense stuff), point is, I know that all guns have to be treated as real until proven otherwise, I'm just saying in this particular case not much was done to attempt to ascertain the situation.

    It's kinda like dressing yourself in steak and walking through a lion pit and arguing about the logic of dressing in steak....Ummm....How about not walking through the lion pit?!?! It was the decision to walk though the pit that was the problem, not dressing in steak!
    Last edited by csbrown28; 11-27-14 at 01:53 AM.
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  8. #428
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    Absolutely not true. I wish I knew what their job description really is because public safety is not mandatory. It has been affirmed by the courts that law enforcement has no obligation to put itself in harm's way.
    There are several decisions.
    You are correct. Sadly.

  9. #429
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Shouldn't they have approached at a greater distance where they could have attempted communication with the suspect in order to gather greater intelligence...?
    And maybe get shot themselves?

  10. #430
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    Re: The next Ferguson ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    If this is police protocol, then that alone is cause for protest. I want to know that police departments are responding to this rash of shootings with new protocols and new prevention measures. This "the cops did nothing wrong" that some are taking is horribly irresponsible.
    So now cops don't have the right to protect their own lives as well as the lives of others?

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