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Thread: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

  1. #331
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If you want to see these things stop, you need to stop those kids from being stupid and their parents from allowing them to do stupid things. Funny how that's never something you acknowledge.
    There will always be stupid kids. There will always be otherwise smart kids who once in a while do stupid things. There will always be parents who don't do a proper job of raising their kids. That will never change.

    What bothers me is the perception on the part of law enforcement that we, the citizenry, are enemy combatants. I don't believe this happened because of a stupid kid - I believe it happened because of the extreme us-vs-them that has developed in this country. I could well be wrong but I don't believe this encounter would have ended this way 50 or 60 years ago. I don't believe the police would have assumed that the kid had a real gun.
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    So he knew the age of the person and that the gun was a toy. You are right, Kreskin aint got nothing on him.
    No he probably knew neither. But most 12 year old look, well like 12 year olds.
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    No he probably knew neither. But most 12 year old look, well like 12 year olds.
    Probably. Most. Look like. All vague terms.

  4. #334
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Agreed...

    what I don't understand is why some defend these brutal police tactics and why the cops themselves don't change them. Why not have one cop with a gun out, perhaps, while a couple of others go to the kid attempting to talk to him. There is no gun visible until they confront him with deadly intent. He probably was just lifting his shirt to show them it was a toy gun. Why are the guys sucking these cops dicks so afraid to admit anything negative?

    That has been my thought on what may have happened and would be a child's logic, that if they show it to him they would know.

    I've made the point here several times I was pulled over with an airsoft rifle and had guns pointed at me and my family while the officer called for backup. My then five year old daughter was in the backseat with the toy gun and was terrified. Had she maybe been a little older I could see her grabbing the box to show the cop and say hey it's just a toy. It's not about kids being stupid, it's that they are just not versed in adult behavior that you can't just show them a fake gun like that.

    And I've also said how the cop said if he would have seen us on the street with it he would have straight up shot us with no questions asked. So it seems maybe we needs to re-evaluate how these realistic looking fake guns are manufactured. If it's that easy to confuse a trained officer, I would think that should tell us it's not a very smart idea to have them on the streets.
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Probably. Most. Look like. All vague terms.
    I don't know what the kid looked like so I can't say definitively. But if you want me to put a number to it I'd say that 99 out of 100 12 year olds I see look like 12 year olds. Is your experience different?
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    IMO Ferguson was a good shooting but I am not so sure about this one. It will be interesting to see what facts come out here.



    "officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

    Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

    “That’s when the officer fired,” he said.

    Read more at Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police - Toledo Blade
    If what the article said about the incident is accurate, that the kid went for the gun after being told to put his hands in the air by police, this looks like another justified shooting and the blame here isn't just that 12 year old boy, but also his parents for not teaching him to respect the police and always obey their instructions.

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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    There will always be stupid kids. There will always be otherwise smart kids who once in a while do stupid things. There will always be parents who don't do a proper job of raising their kids. That will never change.

    What bothers me is the perception on the part of law enforcement that we, the citizenry, are enemy combatants. I don't believe this happened because of a stupid kid - I believe it happened because of the extreme us-vs-them that has developed in this country. I could well be wrong but I don't believe this encounter would have ended this way 50 or 60 years ago. I don't believe the police would have assumed that the kid had a real gun.
    This is exactly right. The police have become in recent years just a militarized arm of the government used against its People. Them against us. Rather us then them. So they teach this "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of threat assessment and this is where it gets us. it's absurd. The police are for the People. They must be for the People. We need better protocols. I don't want police to needlessly be at risk, though some amount of risk is inherent to the job. But we can't employ these lethal methods so haphazardly. We must find a solution.
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I don't know what the kid looked like so I can't say definitively. But if you want me to put a number to it I'd say that 99 out of 100 12 year olds I see look like 12 year olds. Is your experience different?
    You'd say? Out of what experience do you speak?

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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    If what the article said about the incident is accurate, that the kid went for the gun after being told to put his hands in the air by police, this looks like another justified shooting and the blame here isn't just that 12 year old boy, but also his parents for not teaching him to respect the police and always obey their instructions.
    It's not just respecting cops either though. My mother always taught me you shouldn't point any guns (except squirt guns, which for us could not be mistaken for a real gun) at anyone. This was especially true of any gun that either fired projectiles or could be mistaken for a real gun. I teach my children the same thing. My husband doesn't want the boys to have toy guns really at all because then they learn to treat guns as toys, especially if they look real. They will learn to safely handle and soot a real gun when they are older, but it will not be treated as a toy. And this is one good reason to teach children this early on.
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    Re: Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The police have become in recent years just a militarized arm of the government used against its People.
    They didn't roll up on Tamir with an MRAP.

    This incident has nothing to do with militarization. These types of incidents have happened for decades.


    Them against us. Rather us then them.
    Or: Cops saw an adolescent reaching for something that looks exactly like a gun. They don't know Tamir, the parents didn't get to him before the police did, and for whatever reason Tamir allegedly reached for the gun rather than follow orders.

    "Us instead of them" is not workable. We can't have police painting a big fat bullseye on their uniforms, and hesitating because the person with a gun is a citizen.


    So they teach this "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of threat assessment and this is where it gets us. it's absurd.
    mmmm

    So with your vast expertise in international policing tactics, can you provide us with policy guidelines that won't result in police getting shot up by 14 year olds?

    Or perhaps you think the police have a freeze ray, and haven't bothered to tell us about it...?


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