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Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police

clownboy said:
Are you talking about the cops in this incident? He did precisely the right thing if everything reported thus far is true. Kid with a gun in a public area. Ordered to put his hands up instead goes for his gun. Two shots, double tap. That's a clean shoot. Regrettable, but not the officer's bung up. The parents and the kid, this is entirely on them.
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The cops did not need to approach with guns out in the first place... maybe one and not aimed. They did not do the right thing because a kid is dead. Tell the kid why they are there and ask the kid if he has a gun or a toy/BB first. This whole thing with cops shooting first or insiting on compliance or you WILL be harmed/tackled/arrested/shot hot head mentality has to stop.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

X Factor said:
He was referring to bigoted statements about cops. I can post some more.
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One can't be a bigot against a profession.

Again, you never made these distinctions before. Before it was just about cops in general. Why the need to try to spin away from what you've clearly stated in the past?
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I did make the distinction. You might have missed it or not noticed it. It might have been subtle and poorly communicated by me. I am not spinning anything. I have been and am being very clear and this questioning me as if I am being disingenuous is getting tedious. If you think that I am attempting to obfuscate or mislead then just say so and I will gladly place you on my list of those that don't deserve my respect.
 
Cephus said:
If you want to see these things stop, you need to stop those kids from being stupid and their parents from allowing them to do stupid things. Funny how that's never something you acknowledge.
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Need to have cops stop approaching situations with a shoot first attitude. Talking can work too...
 
Bodhisattva said:
The cops did not need to approach with guns out in the first place... maybe one and not aimed. They did not do the right thing because a kid is dead. Tell the kid why they are there and ask the kid if he has a gun or a toy/BB first. This whole thing with cops shooting first or insiting on compliance or you WILL be harmed/tackled/arrested/shot hot head mentality has to stop.
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Makes me extremely thankful you aren't a police officer. Had it been a high velocity gun and the kid was the sort to think he could win by taking some police out in a blaze of glory, every member of the public in the vicinity would have been in mortal danger.

What happened is NOT hot headed mentality, but carefully considered policy and training.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The cops did not need to approach with guns out in the first place... maybe one and not aimed. They did not do the right thing because a kid is dead. Tell the kid why they are there and ask the kid if he has a gun or a toy/BB first. This whole thing with cops shooting first or insiting on compliance or you WILL be harmed/tackled/arrested/shot hot head mentality has to stop.
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Excuse me kind sir would you tell me if that object that resembles a firearm you're aiming at my head really is in fact a firearm?
 
clownboy said:
Makes me extremely thankful you aren't a police officer. Had it been a high velocity gun and the kid was the sort to think he could win by taking some police out in a blaze of glory, every member of the public in the vicinity would have been in mortal danger.

What happened is NOT hot headed mentality, but carefully considered policy and training.
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I disagree... and it was not a real gun and an innocent kid was shot and killed. Why is this not being acknowledged and why are we hearing, "what if"? What if didn't happened. WHAT happened is that the cops shot a kid in a park with a BB gun and killed him.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Excuse me kind sir would you tell me if that object that resembles a firearm you're aiming at my head really is in fact a firearm?
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It was in the waist band of his pants concealed by his shirt... so much for the melodramatics though.
 
Cephus said:
If you want to see these things stop, you need to stop those kids from being stupid and their parents from allowing them to do stupid things. Funny how that's never something you acknowledge.
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You're asking for the impossible. Kids will always be stupid and parents will always be neglectful.

Mistakes similarly impossible to avoid but assuming that a kid is armed with a real gun when in the vast majority kids are playing with toys is similarly stupid and is just begging for accidents to happen.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It was in the waist band of his pants concealed by his shirt... so much for the melodramatics though.
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How long do you think it takes to draw pistol through no retention? I carry my pistol in a no retention holster on my waistband I'm certain I could draw faster than a police officer can through a duty holster. You're talking about actions which happen in fractions of a second. In the 1980s in Miami a Hispanic police officer name Louis Alvarez was brought up on charges for shooting a black teenager who had a real pistol in his waistband. The defense attorney Roy black brought a man named Massad Ayoob as an expert witness and massad did a demonstration for the jury where he showed that the pistol could be drawn and fired in less than half a second. Alvarez was acquitted
 
Bodhisattva said:
I disagree... and it was not a real gun and an innocent kid was shot and killed. Why is this not being acknowledged and why are we hearing, "what if"? What if didn't happened. WHAT happened is that the cops shot a kid in a park with a BB gun and killed him.
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Yes, what if. Those policies and procedures the cops were following are put in place by folks who have had years of on the job experience. That the gun wasn't a real high velocity weapon is just a stroke of luck for the surrounding public. Acknowledge that.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It was in the waist band of his pants concealed by his shirt... so much for the melodramatics though.
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Where are you finding this? The source please. And it so obviously wasn't concealed, otherwise there would have never been a 911 call.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Heard about this on the radio last night.

Sounds like a sucky situation all around - I bet the cop is going to be a long time dealing with having shot a kid with a toy gun, even if he did think it was real at the time.

Of course I could be wrong about that, but at first glance...
 
Bodhisattva said:
I disagree... and it was not a real gun and an innocent kid was shot and killed. Why is this not being acknowledged and why are we hearing, "what if"?
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Again, the cops had no way to know whether the gun shot BB's or .45 caliber bullets.

No one is saying that Tamir was guilty of any crime. He just did something a little dumb, like all of us have. And as occasionally happens, it had terrible consequences.

That said, I'm not sure what policies we could implement to avoid this situation, without getting cops shot left and right. (Can you imagine the consequences, if cops were required to hesitate every time they saw a gun painted neon yellow?) It's also a completely separate from issues like abuse and corruption.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Bodhisattva said:
Post some bigoted comments of mine about race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Man up. Don't bitch out kid...
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YOUR source...
big·ot noun \ˈbi-gət\
: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group).

You are a bigot. X posted several comments from additional threads which clearly demonstrate your bigotry and prejudice. But...you have friends that are cops.

Your words. Your source and definitions.
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

Bodhisattva said:
:lol:

The same exact minute I challenge you, you run away... LOL
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run away...drive on an hour and a half commute...same thing... :lamo
 
EMNofSeattle said:
How long do you think it takes to draw pistol through no retention? I carry my pistol in a no retention holster on my waistband I'm certain I could draw faster than a police officer can through a duty holster. You're talking about actions which happen in fractions of a second. In the 1980s in Miami a Hispanic police officer name Louis Alvarez was brought up on charges for shooting a black teenager who had a real pistol in his waistband. The defense attorney Roy black brought a man named Massad Ayoob as an expert witness and massad did a demonstration for the jury where he showed that the pistol could be drawn and fired in less than half a second. Alvarez was acquitted
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300 million people in America and how many times do cops get drawn on? I am all for police safety but too many innocent people are being killed. This is a serious and real issue that needs to be addressed... not just brushed off as a "good shoot".
 
Re: The next Ferguson ?

VanceMack said:
YOUR source...
big·ot noun \ˈbi-gət\
: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group).

You are a bigot. X posted several comments from additional threads which clearly demonstrate your bigotry and prejudice. But...you have friends that are cops.
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By that retarded context everybody is a bigot. At the very least you are a bigot against bigots. That said, I am not against all cops. Your attempt to paint me such is idiotic and if this is all you have, pathetic attempts to demean others then good for you. I will be moving on to others that actually debate though...

Your words. Your source and definitions.
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That you clearly are incapable of understanding...

run away...drive on an hour and a half commute...same thing
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Sure... good excuse, coward who still hasn't manned up. :lol:

You probably spent that hour looking for and FAILING to find actual bigoted remarks by me...
 
Visbek said:
Again, the cops had no way to know whether the gun shot BB's or .45 caliber bullets.

No one is saying that Tamir was guilty of any crime. He just did something a little dumb, like all of us have. And as occasionally happens, it had terrible consequences.

That said, I'm not sure what policies we could implement to avoid this situation, without getting cops shot left and right. (Can you imagine the consequences, if cops were required to hesitate every time they saw a gun painted neon yellow?) It's also a completely separate from issues like abuse and corruption.
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I don't know what the answer is either but too many innocent people are being shot by police... that is a fact.
 
clownboy said:
Where are you finding this? The source please. And it so obviously wasn't concealed, otherwise there would have never been a 911 call.
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From the article...

"Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said."

Read more at Cleveland boy with fake pistol killed by police - Toledo Blade

Like I said, he could have just been getting it to show that it was not a real gun... the officer fired though. This officer shooting is a difficult one, in all honesty. After thinking about it I am not sure that he did the wrong thing... this is just happening too often and police shootings need to be addressed.
 
clownboy said:
Yes, what if. Those policies and procedures the cops were following are put in place by folks who have had years of on the job experience. That the gun wasn't a real high velocity weapon is just a stroke of luck for the surrounding public. Acknowledge that.
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I acknowledge that it was fortunate though I don't know why that is relevant. I took a squirt gun to the park with my kids and it was a stroke of luck for the surrounding public that I didn't have a real gun and started plugging people as well... ummm, yeah. Not having something bad is not relevant when you don't have something bad. It would be a stroke of luck if he had a real gun but nobody got hurt.

Now, it was not a real gun and an innocent kid was shot and killed. Acknowledged?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I don't know what the answer is either but too many innocent people are being shot by police... that is a fact.
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How many is "too many?" (and no, "one innocent death is too many" is not an acceptable answer, because it demands an unattainable level of perfection)

Has any city or nation adopted anything remotely along the lines of what you've recommended, with beneficial results?

What if a city did require police to hesitate before shooting at civilians, and more cops were killed as a direct result of that policy change? Would you decry that outcome?

How long were the police supposed to wait before concluding the gun wasn't real, or Tamir wasn't really going to shoot them?

Does it occur to you at all that you're looking at this with hindsight, and you know more than the cops could possibly know at the time of the incident?
 
Bodhisattva said:
300 million people in America and how many times do cops get drawn on? I am all for police safety but too many innocent people are being killed. This is a serious and real issue that needs to be addressed... not just brushed off as a "good shoot".
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But when do you wait to before you drawn pull the trigger? The officer contacted the kids to because he concealed weapon which carrying a concealed weapon is a crime in most states without a license, and the suspect clearly looked far too young to be in possession of such a license. So the kid was being contacted for weapons charge and when asked to put up his hands he did the opposite he put his hands in the waistband where the officer saw him put what look like a pistol, somethings really are simple. As far as brushing it off if these truly are the facts of the case you can go and look at them for five months but it won't change the facts. And really if there was a law that I thought would help change lives like making all the toy guns transparent you're wrong size or or require you to be at least 18 to purchase airgun that looked exactly like a real gun, I would support such legislation because were at a point now or toys like to much exactly like the real thing. I have air guns that are the exact same size weight and feel as real pistols that I own. I think finding a way to keep kids are too young to possess a real gun from toys that look like real guns is probably a good idea but in the end there's no telling that he wouldn't of just gotten it from a friend
 
Visbek said:
How many is "too many?" (and no, "one innocent death is too many" is not an acceptable answer, because it demands an unattainable level of perfection)

Has any city or nation adopted anything remotely along the lines of what you've recommended, with beneficial results?

What if a city did require police to hesitate before shooting at civilians, and more cops were killed as a direct result of that policy change? Would you decry that outcome?

How long were the police supposed to wait before concluding the gun wasn't real, or Tamir wasn't really going to shoot them?

Does it occur to you at all that you're looking at this with hindsight, and you know more than the cops could possibly know at the time of the incident?
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It didn't occur to me initially but it has been for a bit now hence the change in my posts, if you noticed. This case I jumped the gun (pun intended) and cast negatives on the cops when it was just a ****ty situation. I am going to call... my bad.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
But when do you wait to before you drawn pull the trigger? The officer contacted the kids to because he concealed weapon which carrying a concealed weapon is a crime in most states without a license, and the suspect clearly looked far too young to be in possession of such a license. So the kid was being contacted for weapons charge and when asked to put up his hands he did the opposite he put his hands in the waistband where the officer saw him put what look like a pistol, somethings really are simple. As far as brushing it off if these truly are the facts of the case you can go and look at them for five months but it won't change the facts. And really if there was a law that I thought would help change lives like making all the toy guns transparent you're wrong size or or require you to be at least 18 to purchase airgun that looked exactly like a real gun, I would support such legislation because were at a point now or toys like to much exactly like the real thing. I have air guns that are the exact same size weight and feel as real pistols that I own. I think finding a way to keep kids are too young to possess a real gun from toys that look like real guns is probably a good idea but in the end there's no telling that he wouldn't of just gotten it from a friend
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Like I said to Visbek... my bad. The cop was given a crappy scenario and the kid put himself in a bad way. The cop should not have to wait for shots fired in a situation like that one... the many cop shootings that are much more obvious just piss me off so whenever it happens now I blame the cop first and I need to stop doing that.
 
These situations are really ****.

I feel for the kids parents, no parent should have to bury their child.

And I feel for the officer involved, there's no way he started his day off wishing he'd get to kill an innocent kid.

But firearms calls have to be taken so seriously because of the day and age we live in.
 
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