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Thread: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

  1. #121
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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    To some extent you are correct when you say that every President, or Congress, or SCOTUS has done things that erode the Constitution, which is why when asked what kind of government we had, Benjamin Franklin replied 'A constitutional republic, if you can keep it.'

    However, pointing to that in some attempt to say that we should not be concerned, or do anything about what a particular President does that clearly violates his duties, and oath is ridiculous....It also smacks of the tired old excuse progressives love these days, which is akin to the 4 year olds excuse 'well, Johnny did it too..'

    Each violation is on its own, and should be examined, and adjudicated so.
    I agree with that, actually. But what's also relevant is precedence, and if you have a long line of precedence indicating that the POTUS simply DOES have a great deal of discretion with regard to, for example, immigration matters, then that must be taken into account. If Bush argued that the Unitary Executive has certain rights that Congress cannot strip and those rights were accepted by the courts and/or Congress, that DOES matter. On this thread the issue is the lawsuit about Obama not enforcing the ACA as written. It's a legitimate question whether he has that authority. But it's a difficult case to make that he MUST enforce the ACA as written (cannot delay certain provisions), but CAN allow Colorado to break federal law and allow pot to be sold, or allow companies to disregard EPA regs, etc. POTUS's have exercised regulatory discretion dating back to the 1800s, it is simply a prerogative of the Executive branch.

    I'm not saying there is no line to cross, but it seems to me where the discretion of the POTUS begins and ends is incredibly difficult to determine, as we saw with Bush and now Obama.

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm a serious poster,
    Let's assume, for the moment, that this is true or you belive it to be true.

    but I don't take seriously people who throw around "Tyrant"
    We have a tyrant today. He is ruling without the consent of the governed rather than faithfully executing the laws. He is making his own laws. He is enforcing law on a whim. Those things are sufficient to identify Obama as a tyrant.

    - if he's a tyrant then so was W. Bush and Reagan and Clinton and Nixon,
    Make your case. How did Bush rule without the consent of the governed? How did Reagan rule without the consent of the governed? How did Clinton rule without the consent of the governed? How did Nixon rule without the consent of the governed?

    and we've been living in "TYRANNY" for decades.
    Make your case. I will read it.

    And using the term to refer to an American POTUS trivializes the regimes under which people really ARE oppressed in lawless states around the world.
    My concern is for this lawless regime. I do not care at all about what other lawless leaders do. They are not my problem. This Lawless One is my problem. And yours. It is no excuse that people are not yet disappearing. Tyranny begins with lawlessness in this case. We must end it by holding the Father of Lies accountable, by impeaching him, convicting him and removing him from office. It is no excuse, in fact it is irresponsible to say we should do nothing because other tyrants are worse than ours.

    Unlike those regimes, there are options here, and the House is turning to one of them - a lawsuit and the courts.
    The only worse solution is to do nothing at all. The legislature has failed to use its Constitutional tools, to impeach, to withhold funds through budgets, and to withhold appointments and other legislation the executive branch desires. If it loses in the courts then the legislature becomes nothing more than a fig leaf. It will be like the Roman Senate under Augustus. We will have the fiction of representative government with its substance. Only craven, spineless men and women would do as this Congress has done.

    They can also withhold funds, pass a new law, or impeach this "Tyrant," which would get them executed, or imprisoned, in actual tyrannical regimes.
    That other nations are further down the road to totalitarian authoritarian states is a warning that the time to stop a tyrant is early. Today. Now. It is not helpful to wait because other tyrants are worse than our own.

    And in two years, this "Tyrant" will walk out of the WH and be peacefully replaced by someone elected by us, which doesn't happen in actually tyrannical regimes. Etc. etc.....................
    So, in your serious post you have said this tyrant is really not all that tyrannical. We can let him advance his tyrannies for two more years because we can elect a whole new tyrant who will use these examples as precedence for his or her own tyrannical acts.

    It hsi what your serious post intended to convey?

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    But a Father of Lies who's a Constitutional Law Professor.
    So you become a liar too. Understood.

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Here's the problem MMC. Obama can certainly determine that illegal aliens will not be prosecuted. That is wholly within his power as chief executive. However, Obama cannot claim that these illegals are here legally by virtue of his order, and reward them with work permits and so on. That is not within his power. That power resides with congress.
    What specific law on the books has Obama violated with this order?
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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    What specific law on the books has Obama violated with this order?
    I was referring to enumerated powers and not US Code.

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I agree with that, actually. But what's also relevant is precedence, and if you have a long line of precedence indicating that the POTUS simply DOES have a great deal of discretion with regard to, for example, immigration matters, then that must be taken into account. If Bush argued that the Unitary Executive has certain rights that Congress cannot strip and those rights were accepted by the courts and/or Congress, that DOES matter. On this thread the issue is the lawsuit about Obama not enforcing the ACA as written. It's a legitimate question whether he has that authority. But it's a difficult case to make that he MUST enforce the ACA as written (cannot delay certain provisions), but CAN allow Colorado to break federal law and allow pot to be sold, or allow companies to disregard EPA regs, etc. POTUS's have exercised regulatory discretion dating back to the 1800s, it is simply a prerogative of the Executive branch.

    I'm not saying there is no line to cross, but it seems to me where the discretion of the POTUS begins and ends is incredibly difficult to determine, as we saw with Bush and now Obama.
    And that's the problem...If we just throw our hands in the air, and say 'oh well, they have that discretion, and it's too hard to fight' , then we won't keep our constitutional republic as Franklin predicted back at the beginning...Do I like how Obama, or hell even Bush before him on certain issues, stretched their authority? No...but even as during Bush's terms, he had the left constantly on his arse, crying about every move, Obama has that now with some of the right leaning groups. The difference is that somehow the very same people in here that were doing the indignant, outrage back then, are now saying to us all that we should just take a chill pill, and let this one do what he wants unobstructed, or hampered by protest....Why?
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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Make your case. How did Bush rule without the consent of the governed? How did Reagan rule without the consent of the governed? How did Clinton rule without the consent of the governed? How did Nixon rule without the consent of the governed?
    I won't bother responding to most of that, but bringing up Reagan (and Nixon!! ) is kind of funny. You might review the Iran-Contra affair that occurred during the reign of Tyrant St. Ronaldus....

    The only worse solution is to do nothing at all. The legislature has failed to use its Constitutional tools, to impeach, to withhold funds through budgets, and to withhold appointments and other legislation the executive branch desires. If it loses in the courts then the legislature becomes nothing more than a fig leaf. It will be like the Roman Senate under Augustus. We will have the fiction of representative government with its substance. Only craven, spineless men and women would do as this Congress has done.
    So your problem is with Congress, and not the POTUS? In actual tyrannical regimes, the elected legislature has no power. See the difference? It's kind of key, which is why I ignore people who don't take that kind of key difference into account.

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And that's the problem...If we just throw our hands in the air, and say 'oh well, they have that discretion, and it's too hard to fight' , then we won't keep our constitutional republic as Franklin predicted back at the beginning...Do I like how Obama, or hell even Bush before him on certain issues, stretched their authority? No...but even as during Bush's terms, he had the left constantly on his arse, crying about every move, Obama has that now with some of the right leaning groups. The difference is that somehow the very same people in here that were doing the indignant, outrage back then, are now saying to us all that we should just take a chill pill, and let this one do what he wants unobstructed, or hampered by protest....Why?
    Like I said, I agree with you basically. And I'll just point out that if you want to acknowledge that republicans as a whole who consider Obama a "tyrant" didn't utter a peep of protest when the Bush lawyers were pushing the idea of the Unitary Executive and unchecked Commander in Chief, and now democrats who protested in the streets then aren't now that Obama is doing the same thing, and so both parties are full of hypocrites and love unchecked power when their guy exercises it in ways they like, but hate unchecked power when the other party's guy exercises power in ways they don't, I will agree with that as well.

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    So you become a liar too. Understood.
    So are you calling University of Chicaco Law School a liar too?

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    Re: House GOP File Lawsuit Against Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So your problem is with Congress, and not the POTUS? In actual tyrannical regimes, the elected legislature has no power. See the difference? It's kind of key, which is why I ignore people who don't take that kind of key difference into account.
    I can't answer for Mister, but isn't that the crux of this constant struggle between Presidential powers, and Congress's authority to originate legislation? Tell me, why this approach of Obama enacting what he thinks should be done, and daring congress to legislate isn't backwards, and absolutely driving in the direction of tyrannical regimes process you describe...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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