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Thread: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

  1. #271
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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    It obviously didn't pass with a bipartisan vote from both houses of congress. And that's what the bill (the potential law) needs to move on to the president. And the president has to sign it, as well. Might be, a bill will have to be rewritten numerous times and numerous compromises reached before one bill on Immigration Reform is signed by BO. That's the American process to creating laws. In spite of Boehner. In spite of BO. In spite of Reid. In spite of congress a bill can be created by congress and signed by the president where it become law.

    I wonder did Boehner and his fellow house cohorts make any suggestions to make the bill more palatable?
    Did Reid and his fellow senate cohorts make any suggestions to make the bill more palatable?

    I know the answer to both is no. It's a my way or the highway kind of situation. Bad for American government. The president is continuing this same attitude.
    Yes. They suggested that it be done in easy to understand and manageable increments and get each step right before moving onto the next. That wasn't acceptable to Senator Reid, so the whole thing is suspended in limbo. Had Congress approached healthcare reform as Boehner suggested for immigration reform, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now. As Senator Schumer made quite clear earlier this week.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by cabse5 View Post
    The House created their own Immigration Reform bill that was pigeonholed by Reid and the Senate.
    The Senate created their own Immigration Reform bill that was pigeonholed by Boehner and the House.

    I'm sorry. Let me clarify the questions for you:
    Did Reid and other Senate members make any suggestions to the House to make the House's bill more palatable to the Senate? No.
    Did Boehner and other House members make any suggestions to the Senate to make the Senate's bill more palatable to the House? No.

    I'm thinking there may either be a my way or highway or ambivalence of attitude towards Immigration Reform. BO is like gang busters on the issue.
    Ahh, I see. As far as the leaders of one house of congress reaching out to the leader of the other house, I can't say but I doubt that there was any formal talks. However, I'm sure they talk from time to time and they have an idea of where the other leader (and his constituent members of Congress) stand on the issue.

    IOW, you do make a good point. The real holdup is not Reid or Boehner; It's how obstinantly opposed both parties are to the others idea of reform.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No. That isn't what I said.
    Then what other objection did you state when you said the House shouldn't vote on the Senate's immigration bill? Maybe it's there and I just missed it somehow, so point it out and I will retract my claim
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Then what other objection did you state when you said the House shouldn't vote on the Senate's immigration bill? Maybe it's there and I just missed it somehow, so point it out and I will retract my claim
    The money world was Obamacare-like. A huge piece of legislation with so many vagaries and opportunities for so many to make mischief with it, it would likely have had just as negative effect on many.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The money world was Obamacare-like.
    WTF does that mean? What "money world" are you talking about?

    A huge piece of legislation with so many vagaries and opportunities for so many to make mischief with it, it would likely have had just as negative effect on many.
    And again, your only complaint is that it's a big bill.

    It's their job to understand legislation, even if it's complex. They should do their job without childish excuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    WTF does that mean? What "money world" are you talking about?



    And again, your only complaint is that it's a big bill.

    It's their job to understand legislation, even if it's complex. They should do their job without childish excuses.
    Sorry. I meant money WORD not world. And I didn't say anything at all about them not understanding the legislation. That's Pelosi's job to pass legislation without knowing what's in it. I think they DID understand the legislation well enough to know the pitfalls that were in it. But I don't think I'll ever get you to refer to what I actually said rather than what you seem to want me to have said, so have a good evening and a Happy Thanksgiving tomorrow.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Ahh, I see. As far as the leaders of one house of congress reaching out to the leader of the other house, I can't say but I doubt that there was any formal talks. However, I'm sure they talk from time to time and they have an idea of where the other leader (and his constituent members of Congress) stand on the issue.

    IOW, you do make a good point. The real holdup is not Reid or Boehner; It's how obstinantly opposed both parties are to the others idea of reform.
    My other points are:(1)if both houses of congress are determined to pass Immigration Reform, there would be some communication - some negotiations, at least, of compromise because, according to the Constitution, one immigration bill must pass both houses and the bills are so diverse. (2)This negotiation process would, most likely, be long and drawn out as either house attempts to have its favorite form of immigration passed. (3) But, there have been no negotiations between houses and this has frustrated a gung ho BO so he established an executive action on Immigration Reform. (4)That's not, according to The Constitution, the role of presidents in the making of laws. A president's role in the making of laws is either yes I like a potential law drawn up by congress or no I don't. At best according to precedent, the president may clarify a law drwan up by congress... not write it. (5)Unless you consider BO's executive action on immigration a new precedent where the president may write law. (6)So, we'll have government workers from every branch of government voicing their favorites for Immigration Reform. Believe me, the judiciary will be asked to weigh in on this matter sooner or later.
    Last edited by cabse5; 11-27-14 at 09:02 AM.

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That was different. Reagan was a Republican.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    No its different because Obama completely by-passed Congress.
    It does not matter the name of the president, or his/her party, Congress makes the laws, and the President enforces them. Plan and simple. The US Constitution is a beautiful thing, it is not meant to be bastardized by ANY president. It is ridiculous when justification is made by a President because another President did it, or justification is made because he/she worked with Congress. If the law needed to be changed or updated, or it a law needs to be made, it should be done by Congress.
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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    then what he isn't doing is legal it is his job to enforce the law whether he likes it or not. he is changing immigration on who can be deported when the law says that these people have to be deported. he is doing it without congressional approval which is a violation of the constitution since the president doesn't have the power to change law.

    An EO is only to be used to clarify an existing law where there is ambiguity and or something that needs to be explained.
    the current immigration law does not have this therefore he changed the law itself.

    he cannot hand out work visa's or anything else that is the realm of the congress to do not Obama.
    I believe you're incorrect as to what an EO is. An EO as I understand is a directive from the president to agencies that report to him on what he wants them to do. It is roughly equivalent to an order from a boss to an underling. Roughly because EOs carry the force of law.

    I've pointed out before that presidents historically have significant leeway in deciding what laws to enforce. It's always been that way because they don't have unlimited manpower and money to enforce every law law on the books. Police departments have the same leeway. So do mayors, governors and prosecutors. That's reality.

    Additionally congress gave the president, though his attorney general legal authority to give illegal immigrants work visas - I've quoted the relevant statute somewhere in this thread. Not only does that give the president the legal authority to do what he's doing it's an obvious admission on Congress' part that the President doesn't necessarily have to deport everyone who's here illegally.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: Obama acts on immigration, announcing decision to defer deportations of 4 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    I believe you're incorrect as to what an EO is. An EO as I understand is a directive from the president to agencies that report to him on what he wants them to do. It is roughly equivalent to an order from a boss to an underling. Roughly because EOs carry the force of law.
    No I am right. an EO is nothing more than a memo to explain or to clarify existing law. What Obama did was change an existing law with his EO which makes it unconstitutional.
    There is no confusion or ambiguity about our current immigration law. it is pretty clear that people who do not have proper documentation to be here need to be deported.

    I've pointed out before that presidents historically have significant leeway in deciding what laws to enforce. It's always been that way because they don't have unlimited manpower and money to enforce every law law on the books. Police departments have the same leeway. So do mayors, governors and prosecutors. That's reality.
    there is a difference here if you can't see it then I don't know what to tell you. while enforcement of the law might not been fully engaged it was still being enforced.

    Additionally congress gave the president, though his attorney general legal authority to give illegal immigrants work visas - I've quoted the relevant statute somewhere in this thread. Not only does that give the president the legal authority to do what he's doing it's an obvious admission on Congress' part that the President doesn't necessarily have to deport everyone who's here illegally.
    the AG is not congress and congress is the only body that can approve work visas or the number of visas. the president doesn't have the power on his own to expand the program.
    which is why he isn't going to be able to do what he wants because the house republicans are simply not going to allow him to do it.

    according to the law yes he does. he has no choice unless he can get congress to change the law. he doesn't have the authority (by Obama's own words) to do what he did.

    which is why states and others already have lawsuits in the pipeline.

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