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Thread: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    You're mixing apples and oranges here. What the gay couple did was want a cake like they ALREADY MAKE. They weren't asking for some "different" cake that had "Hail Satan" on it.

    That is what public accommodation laws are about. If I sell a hammer to a Christian, I am also required to sell a hammer to a Satanist.
    shhhhh why use reality and common sense when it can be molded into something dishonest

    and that dishonesty is claiming "people dont have the right to cake and rights should not just protect gays or special groups but all of us"

    the problem with that dishonesty is nobody is claiming anybody has "a right to cake" nor doe anti-discrimination laws just protect gays or a special group since we all have a sexual orientation.

    its a total strawman
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    One of the bakeries in question was more than happy to make a cake for a dog wedding and a pagan solstice celebration, so I'm not sure the religious beliefs argument was genuine in the first place.

    Refusing to do special orders and refusing to make a cake because the couple it's gay are different things.
    Exactly, the problem with exemption from the law for "beliefs" is anyone can make up any crap once they're busted. Bigotry itself is a belief, after all. Attach a 'booming voice' telling you to hate entire groups and there, you have religious exemption.

    It's far simpler and more accurate to just label these refusals to abide public service laws as bigotry and dismiss any excuses as to religious indoctrination.

    The bitching over public accommodation laws is never all-encompassing either, but rather along the lines "they shouldn't have to provide service to homos cause i hate homos!"

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, it is for everyone. Just not based on every conceivable characteristic or action. Where did you get the idea that it has to be all or nothing?
    So special groups. My religious freedoms can be imposed upon if I happen to worship Satan and want a Christian baker to make a Hail Satan cake. So my convenience of getting a cake doesn't override the property and labor rights of the baker. If I'm in one of your protected groups, then my convenience overrides the property and labor rights of the baker.

    This is known, it's just how you have to argue when you don't argue from a sound, fundamental philosophy. It's all flippy and floppy and you got to put in all sorts of conditions to engineer the social response you want.

    So special groups have their convenience recognized over the rights of others, but not everyone can have their convenience recognized over the rights of others. That's pretty much your argument.
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So special groups. My religious freedoms can be imposed upon if I happen to worship Satan and want a Christian baker to make a Hail Satan cake. So my convenience of getting a cake doesn't override the property and labor rights of the baker. If I'm in one of your protected groups, then my convenience overrides the property and labor rights of the baker.

    This is known, it's just how you have to argue when you don't argue from a sound, fundamental philosophy. It's all flippy and floppy and you got to put in all sorts of conditions to engineer the social response you want.

    So special groups have their convenience recognized over the rights of others, but not everyone can have their convenience recognized over the rights of others. That's pretty much your argument.
    Correction: I don't have an absolute philosophy. Because the world is not black and white.

    Do you apply "protect everything or protect nothing" to other aspects of law and/or society? Either we ban all firearms or allow people to own nuclear weapons! Otherwise we're picking and choosing which weapons are "approved" right? Either we can restrict any speech for any reason, or we literally have to legalize incitement of homicide. First amendment, man.

    This isn't a "special group" thing, I already explained that to you. If you aren't willing to continue this discussion honestly, I think we're done. Because either you are being dishonest, or you're one of the people I mentioned earlier that thinks religious protections only apply to Christians, or that racial protections only apply to black people.

    The baker chose to run a for-profit business that holds out to the public, and to subject themselves to the regulations that pertain to such. This includes public accommodation laws. We "restrict property rights" of restaurants by forcing them to adhere to various health codes. Maybe you think we should repeal those also. Or is your philosophy flippy and floppy?
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-21-14 at 11:30 AM.
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Carleen View Post
    Are you yawning because you agree with equality same sex marriage?
    Because I am a conservative I should be against it? Why is that?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    shhhhh why use reality and common sense when it can be molded into something dishonest

    and that dishonesty is claiming "people dont have the right to cake and rights should not just protect gays or special groups but all of us"

    the problem with that dishonesty is nobody is claiming anybody has "a right to cake" nor doe anti-discrimination laws just protect gays or a special group since we all have a sexual orientation.

    its a total strawman
    The "right to cake"??? That's a good one...Tell me more of this "right to cake"....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Because I am a conservative I should be against it? Why is that?
    I didn't say you were against it. Just asking what yawn meant.
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No they do not. If I had requested a hail satan cake from the bakery, do you think they'd be out of business now? They would have refused to make that special order cake, it would be against their religious practices. No, the fact is that the application of that particular law in that particular case infringed upon the property and labor rights of the business owner for the convenience of the customer to not have to walk across the street to another bakery.

    These universal arguments of yours do not apply universally.
    Bad analogy. Nobody is asking someone to sell them anything different than they would sell to anyone else. Try again.
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Many bakeries make special cakes for events or other festivities for customers. Are you saying my Hail Satan and KKK is Great cakes aren't "protected", but we're protecting everyone, yes?
    You don't have a right to demand that they create a special "cake" for you. At the same time, the baker cannot refuse to sell the same cake to a Satanist that he would sell to a Christian. He cannot refuse to sell the same cake to a black person that he would to a white person. Get it now?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The "right to cake"??? That's a good one...Tell me more of this "right to cake"....
    EXACTLY!!!!
    i agree 100% somebody claim thats what this was about (right to cake) and i found that failed dishonest strawman quite hilarious too
    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    Genetically human & human being is exactly the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    homosexuality is objectively wrong, but because science tells me it is, not politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I'm not at risk for AIDS. Gays are.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajn678 View Post
    there is no such thing as an abortion on a dead fetus.

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