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Thread: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    While you are consistent in your argument, most on the right support the fact that a business cannot turn away someone because they are black. So it is consistent that they cannot turn away someone that is gay as well. Now, you view that as wrong as forcing a business not to turn away a person because they are black, I happen to disagree.

    Bottom line is that as long as there are laws that say you cannot turn away someone because they are black, don't be surprised that there are laws that say you cannot turn away someone that is gay. I suggest you get with those on the right and try to sway them to your argument then if that is a sore spot with you.
    I know those laws exist and once established, will be proliferated. But the point is that we can't turn to government for every little slight we think we experience. Everyone has rights, not just select groups, and you can't (or rather cannot justly) infringe upon that without cause. And the cause requires an infringement of your own rights. No matter how many people cry and scream and carry on, you are not entitled to the cake of others.

    Yes, we can use government force to make it so, but by doing so we're going to open up all sorts of other paths of government force as well; and it will take them. Instead, it's our responsibility as intelligent and active consumers to use our consumer force (not government force) to control the businesses in our area. It's the method best aligned with freedom for all.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I know those laws exist and once established, will be proliferated. But the point is that we can't turn to government for every little slight we think we experience. Everyone has rights, not just select groups, and you can't (or rather cannot justly) infringe upon that without cause. And the cause requires an infringement of your own rights. No matter how many people cry and scream and carry on, you are not entitled to the cake of others.

    Yes, we can use government force to make it so, but by doing so we're going to open up all sorts of other paths of government force as well; and it will take them. Instead, it's our responsibility as intelligent and active consumers to use our consumer force (not government force) to control the businesses in our area. It's the method best aligned with freedom for all.
    And again, on the surface I don't disagree with you. However, unlike you, most of the right has gone lock step and marching on with the fact that buisinesses CANNOT discriminate if you are black. To apply that to gays is no different. What many on the right are hypocritical for is on one hand they say "You cannot discriminate against blacks and must serve them the cake", but then turn right around and say "You can discriminate against gays and not serve them the cake".

    Can't have it both ways. Since the most on the right have agreed to this stance that government has control (i.e. government can be involved with marriage, with discrimination laws, etc), why are they now acting surprised when the government goes along a non-discrimination stance with gays.

    The precedence set with BOTH the majority of the right and the left is that discrimination is wrong and public accommodation laws are valid. It is ONLY in the instance of gays that all of a sudden some on the right have a problem with those laws. Sorry, but that isn't how it works. You are quite correct in saying that the more you allow government in the more it will regulate you, but the right has been lock in step with the left in that regard for a while now. The genie isn't going back in the bottle and Pandora's box has been opened when it comes to public accommodation laws.

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And again, on the surface I don't disagree with you. However, unlike you, most of the right has gone lock step and marching on with the fact that buisinesses CANNOT discriminate if you are black. To apply that to gays is no different.
    There was a time when it was necessary, and if homosexuals had gone through a period of time of forced government slavery; then they'd have a stronger argument. But they didn't, and being gay is not the same as being black, nor has it historically encountered the same dynamics and system of government force in our Republic.

    Ultimately, we should evolve to a point where all those laws can go away and that We the People are left to police ourselves and consume in intelligent manners which reflect the social norms we wish to see. The goal should be getting to a point where these laws are removed, not adding more.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There was a time when it was necessary, and if homosexuals had gone through a period of time of forced government slavery; then they'd have a stronger argument. But they didn't, and being gay is not the same as being black, nor has it historically encountered the same dynamics and system of government force in our Republic.
    Of course it isn't the same, but the fact gay people are who they are is just as valid. The fact they didn't go through the exact same doesn't make them any less valid for public accommodation laws than black people are now. Are you telling me the black people growing up now are the same as those in slave times? No, they are not.

    Ultimately, we should evolve to a point where all those laws can go away and that We the People are left to police ourselves and consume in intelligent manners which reflect the social norms we wish to see. The goal should be getting to a point where these laws are removed, not adding more.
    "Should" is the key word there. The majority of people in the country do not think as you do in terms of discrimination. You will not see a candidate running on a platform of abolishing public accommodation laws. Simple isn't going to happen and is wishful thinking and not reality.

    I would like a world where we all get a long and work for something better together. That is a fantasy though at this time and not reality. The reality is that public accommodation laws are here for the foreseeable future and gay people are going to be included in that and have just as much a right to it as black people do now.

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Its awesome to see bigotry in America being kicked to the curb. A great win for freedom and equality. Let the remaining 15 states that still allow marital discrimination fall soon!
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No matter how many people cry and scream and carry on, you are not entitled to the cake of others.
    .
    can you qoute all those people crying and screaming and carrying on and saying they are entitled to cake?
    heck is there even one person that says they have a right to cake?
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Of course it isn't the same, but the fact gay people are who they are is just as valid. The fact they didn't go through the exact same doesn't make them any less valid for public accommodation laws than black people are now. Are you telling me the black people growing up now are the same as those in slave times? No, they are not.



    "Should" is the key word there. The majority of people in the country do not think as you do in terms of discrimination. You will not see a candidate running on a platform of abolishing public accommodation laws. Simple isn't going to happen and is wishful thinking and not reality.

    I would like a world where we all get a long and work for something better together. That is a fantasy though at this time and not reality. The reality is that public accommodation laws are here for the foreseeable future and gay people are going to be included in that and have just as much a right to it as black people do now.
    And neither have right to the cake of others. We need go be removing government force, not adding to it. I can't see legitimate use of force for someone having been refused cake. Let alone using government force to neigh bankrupt them.

    There are certain refusals of service that can indeed infringe upon the rights of others, and for those specific cases then it is certainly legitimate to call forth the guns of government. But in general? No. One just doesn't have the right to the property and labor of others, not innately.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And neither have right to the cake of others. We need go be removing government force, not adding to it. I can't see legitimate use of force for someone having been refused cake. Let alone using government force to neigh bankrupt them.

    There are certain refusals of service that can indeed infringe upon the rights of others, and for those specific cases then it is certainly legitimate to call forth the guns of government. But in general? No. One just doesn't have the right to the property and labor of others, not innately.
    correct they dont have the right to cake, good thing that has nothing to do with this topic
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, it's the one-way street. I'm all for same sex marriage and allowing everyone their equal rights; but that means recognizing the equal rights of everyone. You do not have the right to another person's property or labor, so you cannot justly and morally force someone to sell you a cake if they do not want to sell you their cake. It's not yours, you have no right for it, none of your rights are violated if you do not obtain the cake.

    Appeal to authority makes bad arguments, so for this thread it's probably best to leave those arguments behind and just focus on the overturning of another same sex marriage ban.
    Yes, many libertarians think we should overturn the civil rights act, but clearly the democratic process has spoken on that subject.
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    Re: Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yes, many libertarians think we should overturn the civil rights act, but clearly the democratic process has spoken on that subject.
    Not necessarily the civil rights act, but push towards a place where everyone's rights and liberties are acknowledged and respected; not just a few chosen groups.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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