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Federal judge overturns Montana's ban on same-sex marriage

Deuce said:
So do you or do you not support public accommodation laws protecting race and religion? Dont whine about the race card. Nobody ****ing called you racist. It's an example to demonstrate the point: people are in favor of public accommodation laws, except when those laws protect someone they dislike.

What was "special order" about this cake you speak of? And which cake was it, there has been more than one bakery with this situation.
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What is special order is that it's not premade and available in the display case. A special order means that they have to special order it and the bakery makes it especially for the customer and their event. I'm talking about the bakery that had refused to make a wedding cake for a same sex couple. They didn't bar homosexuals from the bakery, in fact they could buy anything that was made and offered for sale out of the case. But they restricted which special cakes they made, and in this case didn't want to make a cake for a same sex marriage ceremony.

The government has to make all the public accommodation it needs to, it cannot discriminate; but private business is private.
 
Ikari said:
What is special order is that it's not premade and available in the display case. A special order means that they have to special order it and the bakery makes it especially for the customer and their event. I'm talking about the bakery that had refused to make a wedding cake for a same sex couple. They didn't bar homosexuals from the bakery, in fact they could buy anything that was made and offered for sale out of the case. But they restricted which special cakes they made, and in this case didn't want to make a cake for a same sex marriage ceremony.

The government has to make all the public accommodation it needs to, it cannot discriminate; but private business is private.
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And because a "special order" wedding cake is part of their normal sales services, they cannot restrict this service in violation of public accommodation laws. Listen, McDonalds can't say "you're black, so we will refuse to hold the mustard on your burger because that's a special order." That's not how public accommodation laws work.

These laws apply to businesses, and you don't seem to be willing to admit you think they should be repealed.
 
Deuce said:
And because a "special order" wedding cake is part of their normal sales services, they cannot restrict this service in violation of public accommodation laws.
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So if they make cakes for special events, they have to do all of them? Thus I can go to a religious couple and demand they make me a Hail Satan cake, and they must, yes? Otherwise I can bring down force of government to neigh bankrupt them. I can go to a black owned bakery and demand a KKK is Great cake, and they must abide yes? Else here comes the guns of government. Right?

Deuce said:
These laws apply to businesses, and you don't seem to be willing to admit you think they should be repealed.
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I already said the goal would be to get rid of these sorts of floppy laws that could favor convenience over rights. Some instances in this Republic warranted some amount of initial intervention, but we as a People must move to a point where we can support our morals and through our interactions and consumerism, properly servo the system. The government can't do it for us.
 
Ikari said:
So if they make cakes for special events, they have to do all of them? Thus I can go to a religious couple and demand they make me a Hail Satan cake, and they must, yes? Otherwise I can bring down force of government to neigh bankrupt them. I can go to a black owned bakery and demand a KKK is Great cake, and they must abide yes? Else here comes the guns of government. Right?
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What was that about absolute arguments?

Wedding cakes were clearly within this business' normal operations.
 
Deuce said:
What was that about absolute arguments?

Wedding cakes were clearly within this business' normal operations.
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Many bakeries make special cakes for events or other festivities for customers. Are you saying my Hail Satan and KKK is Great cakes aren't "protected", but we're protecting everyone, yes?
 
Ikari said:
Many bakeries make special cakes for events or other festivities for customers. Are you saying my Hail Satan and KKK is Great cakes aren't "protected", but we're protecting everyone, yes?
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Membership in a terrorist organization isn't a protected classification.

KKK membership isn't a race or gender. Not really sure what your confusion is.
 
Deuce said:
Membership in a terrorist organization isn't a protected classification.

KKK membership isn't a race or gender. Not really sure what your confusion is.
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Just making sure that your argument for equal rights isn't actually equal, but only for groups you think are deserving. And it is. Trying to construct the one way road is a sure way to lose liberty.
 
Ikari said:
Just making sure that your argument for equal rights isn't actually equal, but only for groups you think are deserving. And it is. Trying to construct the one way road is a sure way to lose liberty.
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No, it is for everyone. Just not based on every conceivable characteristic or action. Where did you get the idea that it has to be all or nothing?
 
Ikari said:
Not necessarily the civil rights act, but push towards a place where everyone's rights and liberties are acknowledged and respected; not just a few chosen groups.
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what choosen groups are you speaking off? the "group" currently being discussed includes you and me and all of us
 
TheNextEra said:
You're mixing apples and oranges here. What the gay couple did was want a cake like they ALREADY MAKE. They weren't asking for some "different" cake that had "Hail Satan" on it.

That is what public accommodation laws are about. If I sell a hammer to a Christian, I am also required to sell a hammer to a Satanist.
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shhhhh why use reality and common sense when it can be molded into something dishonest

and that dishonesty is claiming "people dont have the right to cake and rights should not just protect gays or special groups but all of us"

the problem with that dishonesty is nobody is claiming anybody has "a right to cake" nor doe anti-discrimination laws just protect gays or a special group since we all have a sexual orientation.

its a total strawman
 
Deuce said:
One of the bakeries in question was more than happy to make a cake for a dog wedding and a pagan solstice celebration, so I'm not sure the religious beliefs argument was genuine in the first place.

Refusing to do special orders and refusing to make a cake because the couple it's gay are different things.
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Exactly, the problem with exemption from the law for "beliefs" is anyone can make up any crap once they're busted. Bigotry itself is a belief, after all. Attach a 'booming voice' telling you to hate entire groups and there, you have religious exemption.

It's far simpler and more accurate to just label these refusals to abide public service laws as bigotry and dismiss any excuses as to religious indoctrination.

The bitching over public accommodation laws is never all-encompassing either, but rather along the lines "they shouldn't have to provide service to homos cause i hate homos!"
 
Deuce said:
No, it is for everyone. Just not based on every conceivable characteristic or action. Where did you get the idea that it has to be all or nothing?
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So special groups. My religious freedoms can be imposed upon if I happen to worship Satan and want a Christian baker to make a Hail Satan cake. So my convenience of getting a cake doesn't override the property and labor rights of the baker. If I'm in one of your protected groups, then my convenience overrides the property and labor rights of the baker.

This is known, it's just how you have to argue when you don't argue from a sound, fundamental philosophy. It's all flippy and floppy and you got to put in all sorts of conditions to engineer the social response you want.

So special groups have their convenience recognized over the rights of others, but not everyone can have their convenience recognized over the rights of others. That's pretty much your argument.
 
Ikari said:
So special groups. My religious freedoms can be imposed upon if I happen to worship Satan and want a Christian baker to make a Hail Satan cake. So my convenience of getting a cake doesn't override the property and labor rights of the baker. If I'm in one of your protected groups, then my convenience overrides the property and labor rights of the baker.

This is known, it's just how you have to argue when you don't argue from a sound, fundamental philosophy. It's all flippy and floppy and you got to put in all sorts of conditions to engineer the social response you want.

So special groups have their convenience recognized over the rights of others, but not everyone can have their convenience recognized over the rights of others. That's pretty much your argument.
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Correction: I don't have an absolute philosophy. Because the world is not black and white.

Do you apply "protect everything or protect nothing" to other aspects of law and/or society? Either we ban all firearms or allow people to own nuclear weapons! Otherwise we're picking and choosing which weapons are "approved" right? Either we can restrict any speech for any reason, or we literally have to legalize incitement of homicide. First amendment, man.

This isn't a "special group" thing, I already explained that to you. If you aren't willing to continue this discussion honestly, I think we're done. Because either you are being dishonest, or you're one of the people I mentioned earlier that thinks religious protections only apply to Christians, or that racial protections only apply to black people.

The baker chose to run a for-profit business that holds out to the public, and to subject themselves to the regulations that pertain to such. This includes public accommodation laws. We "restrict property rights" of restaurants by forcing them to adhere to various health codes. Maybe you think we should repeal those also. Or is your philosophy flippy and floppy?
 
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AGENT J said:
shhhhh why use reality and common sense when it can be molded into something dishonest

and that dishonesty is claiming "people dont have the right to cake and rights should not just protect gays or special groups but all of us"

the problem with that dishonesty is nobody is claiming anybody has "a right to cake" nor doe anti-discrimination laws just protect gays or a special group since we all have a sexual orientation.

its a total strawman
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The "right to cake"??? :lamo That's a good one...Tell me more of this "right to cake"....
 
Ikari said:
No they do not. If I had requested a hail satan cake from the bakery, do you think they'd be out of business now? They would have refused to make that special order cake, it would be against their religious practices. No, the fact is that the application of that particular law in that particular case infringed upon the property and labor rights of the business owner for the convenience of the customer to not have to walk across the street to another bakery.

These universal arguments of yours do not apply universally.
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Bad analogy. Nobody is asking someone to sell them anything different than they would sell to anyone else. Try again.
 
Ikari said:
Many bakeries make special cakes for events or other festivities for customers. Are you saying my Hail Satan and KKK is Great cakes aren't "protected", but we're protecting everyone, yes?
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You don't have a right to demand that they create a special "cake" for you. At the same time, the baker cannot refuse to sell the same cake to a Satanist that he would sell to a Christian. He cannot refuse to sell the same cake to a black person that he would to a white person. Get it now?
 
j-mac said:
The "right to cake"??? :lamo That's a good one...Tell me more of this "right to cake"....
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EXACTLY!!!!
i agree 100% somebody claim thats what this was about (right to cake) and i found that failed dishonest strawman quite hilarious too
 
Carleen said:
I didn't say you were against it. Just asking what yawn meant.
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I am bored with the endless thread after thread about every little jurisdiction that moves forward...They are all the same exact conversation...Can't we just have a thread on the subject and all of these small victories, or set backs can be added in on that one.

I know maybe a gay subsection of the board...
 
j-mac said:
I am bored with the endless thread after thread about every little jurisdiction that moves forward...They are all the same exact conversation...Can't we just have a thread on the subject and all of these small victories, or set backs can be added in on that one.

I know maybe a gay subsection of the board...
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curiosity

if a STATE the size of Montana is a "little jurisdiction" what in your opinion is:
a normal size jurisdiction?
a large one?
what would you consider a county?
city?
 
j-mac said:
I am bored with the endless thread after thread about every little jurisdiction that moves forward...They are all the same exact conversation...Can't we just have a thread on the subject and all of these small victories, or set backs can be added in on that one.

I know maybe a gay subsection of the board...
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Then quit posting in these threads.
 
Deuce said:
Then quit posting in these threads.
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Stand with me in petitioning the moderation team to create your own section where you can post as many of these repetitive threads as you wish and quit littering up BN.
 
j-mac said:
Stand with me in petitioning the moderation team to create your own section where you can post as many of these repetitive threads as you wish and quit littering up BN.
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Why? You're the one with the objection. I like to see the anti-freedom crowd squirm.
 
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