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Thread: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No I didn't.
    Commerce should be free in a free society and not interfered with by the state unless the state can demonstrate some overriding national interest to stop that commerce. The case hasn't been made. So its not like I support the pipeline. I just don't recognize any rational or legal reason for the state to prevent its construction. Oil, like every other product, needs to be transported from point A to point B. Pipelines are the safest, most efficient means of doing that. I don't need a rational reason to support the construction of this pipeline any more than I would need a rational reason to support someone erecting a shed.
    Property rights has come up in this thread as a reason. Where are you at on that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    We already subsidize the oil industry. My point was that it was dumb to nix the pipeline, as it could be used as a bargaining chip. Do you need for me to clarify further?
    I would have agreed a few years ago, but the risk to the main source of water for America's farmland and millions of people is not worth it. Especially when Canada has proven that it can move the oil by rail and truck successfully on its own. The same reason I'm against the Pebble Mine in Alaska is the same reason I'm against the pipeline. Farm land and fisheries will provide productive jobs and resources long after the oil and gold are gone. Plus, this pipeline will result in maybe 30 permanent jobs. That is not worth risking the billions of dollars of agriculture and related jobs from contamination of the aquifer.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Property rights has come up in this thread as a reason. Where are you at on that?
    I responded to that already. And I think that would make for an interesting argument that probably has some validity. But that isn't the argument being used to stop the pipeline. The left really couldn't use that argument anyway without looking like total hypocrites. They are advocates of state power, not property rights.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    You might actually be able to make a rational case on those grounds. Too bad that isn't the case that is being made. It might be interesting to see how it would play out.
    Unfortunately it will not get traction.Because the side that mostly opposes the pipeline generally don't seem to care about property rights. While the side that is generally for property rights could care less in this case because they have their lips firmly wrapped around the cocks of big oil. Big oil tells them to jump and they say "how high?".
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    I responded to that already. And I think that would make for an interesting argument that probably has some validity. But that isn't the argument being used to stop the pipeline. The left really couldn't use that argument anyway without looking like total hypocrites. They are advocates of state power, not property rights.
    Please stop trying to speak for your opposition. You are so damn terrible at it. You are not even close to being truthful with your idiotic broad-strokes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
    No I didn't.
    Commerce should be free in a free society and not interfered with by the state unless the state can demonstrate some overriding national interest to stop that commerce.
    By using eminent domain the oil company is requesting that the state interfere on its behalf for force property owners to sell to them.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    i dont consider it a defeat as much as i consider it a failure to prevail filibuster,veto,or reids vote blocking.


    defeated as in didnt pass yes,defeated as in majority voted it down no.the current means are legit as they are what congress chose as the rules,but i cant conflate defeat with majority support.


    i doubt obama would veto it,he would probably pressure changes as a comprimise.without reid,obama either has to comprimise to get what he wants in echange for getting republicans what they want,or he will be labelled the obstructionist.
    When something does not pass regardless if it needs 51 or 60 votes, it does not pass and was defeated. There has been a ton of stuff McConnell has led filibusters on and succeeded as the Democrats couldn't get the necessary 60 votes. Are those victories too? I mean for the Democrats in your minds eye.

    Probably not as that suited your political ideology. Just a guess there. If the president veto's it, an obstructionist? That probably depends on which side of the political fence you sit on. The Democrats think the Republican House has been obstructionist these last 4 years. It will take more than one veto of one bill to convince the majority of Americans the president is an obstructionist. Independents must come to that conclusion besides Republicans or that view is just a partisan one.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Please stop trying to speak for your opposition. You are so damn terrible at it. You are not even close to being truthful with your idiotic broad-strokes.
    Lol. Actually I am pretty good at labeling liberals for what they are. If you think liberals give a crap about property rights, you haven't been paying attention. Liberalism cannot exist if the state secures to each that which is rightfully his own. You cant rob Peter to pay Paul without first discarding the idea that Peter has any right to his property.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    People, this has happened how many times before? The Republicans have been doing this for a few years now, putting it up when they know it will fail, likely for several purposes: to keep the issue in the headlines, to draw out any Democrats whose constituents are telling them they want it.

    In any event, two things must be kept in mind, one is that next year the Republicans will have enough votes and will send a bill to the White House so Obama is forced to veto it.

    Meanwhile here, there is dwindling support for the the XL, as it employs mostly American workers, where if we go with a Northern route, now being planned all those jobs and lease money stays in Canada. Most economists in the oil patch say the XL is dead, for all intents and purposes Obama has killed it
    Here the Pipeline is still very popular. I wonder, could some of the lack of support in your country be due to the plummeting price of oil? I heard big companies are going to start cutting back on fracking due to the price drop. I know Canada is the king of fracking and has become an important import. Here we are on the verge of turning the United States from an energy importer to energy exporter because of fracking. And we did it on private lands. Those who have been in charge in Washington have put every roadblock they could muster to stop fracking on government lands. The increase of oil produced in America making its way into the market is one reason cost for oil has dropped. But if it drops too low companies will have no choice but to stop production. It costs us a lot more to produce that oil and natural gas than what the Saudis do. Some think the Saudis are purposely lowering the price per barrel to kill our new energy boom in its early stages. Nothing would make a greenie weenie happier than to see that happen. But at the same time if oil drops to $45 dollars a barrel all these big investments in alternatives will have folded because they will no longer be able to compete with cheap gas and oil. Does the name Ivanpah ring a bell? It's a company owned by a couple of greenie cronies Google and NRG. Two billion dollars poured into this company much on the taxpayers' dime and it struggles to produce 25% of the energy it claimed it could. And then wanted extentions on its loans and grants to help pay off their debt.
    World's largest solar plant applying for federal grant to pay off federal loan | Fox News
    People aren't going to continue to put up with that crap. Especially if they can get oil at such prices and natural gas on the cheap.

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    Re: Senate Narrowly Defeats Keystone XL Pipeline

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    the choices are pretty poor. the best thing we can do would be to eliminate gerrymandering nationwide and to ease ballot access restrictions. unfortunately, the only people who can do that are the ones who would lose the most if the effort was actually successful.
    I could get on board with that.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton
    "Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections." --Mitt Romney

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