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Thread: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Selective issuance of a marriage license limits the choice in whom a private citizen can enter a private contract with.
    No it doesn't, it only limits the government (in the degree to which it issues). Any issuance of a license requires selective issuance of the license. As a single example, everyone (well, most folk) agrees it shouldn't be issued to those whom we have judged are incapable of making fully informed decisions.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Pero.

    Just because we can do something doesn't mean we always should. How are we helping in the ME? Those religious zealots have been killing each other for 1300 years and we are not going to stop them, IMO. They resent us for even trying, Forcrissakes, and laugh at us! That's the appreciation we get for our efforts? Those that are being beheaded should not have been there as targets for those depraved thugs, even though some were only trying to provide humanitarian aid. That's a reason to kill them? We are not dealing with rational people, and that both scares and disgusts me. So why are we there?

    Off topic, but I hope I chose the correct deity to look after your wife today. She seemed so right for the job!
    You did just fine. Let's face it, zealots are not rational regardless of religion. Christians had the inquisition and witch trials. But those were a long time ago and one could say they were not rational either. Today it is the jihadist who are not rational. I don't know, I guess the world is one crazy place.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah. We tried the "let's pick a moderate Republican candidate who isn't strong on social conservatism but who is good on fiscal issues" in 2008 and 2012. It turns out, when you don't do a good job of turning out your base, you loose elections.
    2008 was doomed regardless of who the GOP ran.

    2012 picked a slimy candidate who would say anything to anyone to get their vote. Is Romney a moderate? We have no idea because he makes Clinton look like a principled rock. Romney changed beliefs like he changed underwear.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No it doesn't, it only limits the government (in the degree to which it issues). Any issuance of a license requires selective issuance of the license. As a single example, everyone (well, most folk) agrees it shouldn't be issued to those whom we have judged are incapable of making fully informed decisions.
    Yes. As allowing such can cause harm to those who aren't capable of making that decision.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yes. As allowing such can cause harm to those who aren't capable of making that decision.
    So you already are placing limitations - many others (for example) remain in favor of banning brother-sister or parent-child pairings - it's all the same; either society has the right to impose restrictions on its government in the issuance of said licenses, or they don't.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yup. They are also more pro gay marriage. If that's the trade, it's one I'm happy, frankly, to make.



    I would bet that a host of government incentives that punish marriage and reward single-parenthood financially also have something to do with it.

    However, if you want to not run a deficit, then you have to reduce social spending. If you want to reduce social spending, then you have to increase social strength. If you want to increase social strength, then you've got to look for ways to enable all of those structures that government is trying (and failing) to take the place of.



    I don't know - what do you think should be done with (say) an unwanted three month old? Should the child be thrown off a cliff a'la the Spartans?



    If you are merely expanding the definition of marriage to include homosexual and polygamous relationships, then you are keeping a government role in marriage, and simply modifying the relationships that they involve themselves in.



    That is because families are (generally) joint economic ventures.



    Yes there should be - however, it shouldn't be as it is, where low-income workers are punished for getting married. Stable marriages form the basis for a stable society. Lose the one, and you'll watch the second degrade. They additionally make the best environment for the raising of children, whom society has additional vested interests in protecting.



    There was also precious little divorce back then. Poverty kept us together.



    That is unfortunately not true. Societies that broadly practice polygamy face higher rates of crime, violence, and instability as a result. The main internal problem facing societies is how to civilize and integrate the energies of young males (women, it seems, are less likely to getting into small groups and deciding it might be fun to shoot up a crowd). Pairing them with a woman via marriage is the single best-known methodology for doing that. Polygamy removes that possibility for a portion of the young male populace by soaking up the supply of available females. That is why polygamous societies also tend to be more warlike - you've got to direct the aggressive tendencies of young males outwards and (hopefully) kill enough of them off that the competition over women doesn't threaten social stability. Polygamy tends to damage the societies that feature it.



    And much to the worse. What is going to happen when suddenly you lack a basis for buying a car for your wife without having to pay gift tax, or a widow finds herself having to pay gift tax in order to access her financial assets in the event of the death of her husband?



    Sure. But if we want to do that, we have to provide alternatives to problem-solving for the gaps that would be created by a shrinking government. And that is why you have to start with social conservatism before you can get to fiscal conservatism.
    I never thought about the financial incentives for single parents, makes sense. I don't think as you put expanding the definition of marriage if that is what it is is expanding government's role. I think it is more like getting government out of saying who can marry and who can not. Before government got involved common law marriages were common and recognized, but this was before state licences and other stuff to include government keeping records.

    Yeah, taxes, used to reward the behavior it wants from its citizens (deductions etc.) and punish the behavior it doesn't. Government has stepped in where people, family, neighbors, communities, charities churches etc. use to take care of others. I grew up in an era where basically the only safety net was social security, no medicare, welfare, etc. But people and other organizations stepped in to help with their time, energy and money those in need. At least where I grew up. Then slowly government stepped in and took that responsibility away if it was a responsibility.

    Wife says get to bed, perhaps we can take this up tomorrow
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So you already are placing limitations - many others (for example) remain in favor of banning brother-sister or parent-child pairings - it's all the same; either society has the right to impose restrictions on its government in the issuance of said licenses, or they don't.
    Similarly, the government can either completely ban gun ownership, or they cannot make any restriction on any weapon ownership, thus rendering privately-owned nuclear weapons legal. The world really is just black and white!!

    Children cannot sign legal contracts, and a compelling state interest exists in barring such: protecting those children from abuse. If you can't identify the harm, I don't know what to tell you.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yup. He thought of it from a new perspective. And what was that perspective?

    That of a dad who loves his son a lot.

    Sure. But if you change your position on something like this not because of your principles but because it was something you wanted to do in order to validate and enable your child (which is a natural desire for a parent), then that means that it is likely that either A) your original position wasn't built on principles or B) your principles are weaker than your emotions.
    Being against same sex marriage is a pretty weak stance unless you want votes from those who also feel that way, most of whom would rather put gays in jail or conversion therapy.

    It's funny how so many on the anti ssm side are saying "think of the children", but when someone on that side does do just that, thinks of his child, then he is enabling and his position is weak and unprincipled.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    As a social conservative I have no problem identifying that neither of them ran on anything except the "moderate GOP" brand. George W ran on Social Conservatism/Fiscal Moderation, and he won two elections. McCain and Romney flipped that, and lost two elections.

    And the reason McCain lost was because of the meltdown and the relative outturn in base. The reason Romney lost was straight up the relative outturn in base.
    Neither McCain nor Romney were for same sex marriage. Yet this guy has this one social issue that he is in disagreement with GOP with, his stance being that of the younger generation, while he is pretty hardcore Republican on pretty much every other issue, including the social ones.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    Depends. Grilling them will reduce your chances of choking to death on one. Some brands do not grill as well as others IMHO.
    Simply adding something else to the peanut butter, such as jelly or bananas, reduces the chance of choking.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 11-18-14 at 08:25 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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