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Thread: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, and that his new perspective was that his son who he loves is now gay and he wants things for him. That's pretty much it right there.

    I think you are doing the fip-side of what you warned me of - seeking to find positive reasons for him to take a position you view positively.
    I repeat, seeing issues from different perspectives and rethinking your stance on those issues is not a sign of any lack of principles. You want to read into what he said and demonize him, but it really is not working. Can you point to any single person who has not rethought their stance on issues over time and because of events?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I would have a hard time calling Bush the younger anything but fiscally conservative as he ran(how he governed was another issue)
    :raises eyebrow: do you remember the same "Compassionate Conservatism" that I do?

    and this may point to an issue with both of us, looking from outlier positions and have less to do with Bush, McCain and Romney's actual positions.
    Well I am looking here at their engagement as well as platform.

    So you agree that their stance on social issues was not why they lost?
    I am saying that social conservatives are Republicans base. Failing to turn them out is the equivalent of Democrats deciding not to support Unions, Women, or Minorities.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I repeat, seeing issues from different perspectives and rethinking your stance on those issues is not a sign of any lack of principles.
    I'm not saying it is. I am saying it indicates that his principles are not that powerful here, but rather are trumped by his emotions.

    You want to read into what he said and demonize him
    who's demonizing? I'm saying that he said that he changed his position not out of principle but rather because he loved his son and wanted to validate and enable him. Which is what you then quoted him as saying.

    Can you point to any single person who has not rethought their stance on issues over time and because of events?
    Sure - most folks change a stance. But that is not the same as changing or adopting a principle. For example, Barack Obama promised to take public funding in 2008, and then discovered he could get a bunch more money if he didn't, at which point he declared he wouldn't take public funding. Do you think that he made that change on principle? Or because it was convenient?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    He's pro gay marriage because his son came out and he wanted to validate him - prior to that, he was against it.

    Meaning that he chooses his stance not on principle, but rather on what is most convenient to him. If you honestly think that access to SSM is a "right", you may want to consider how lightly he values it.
    This is like being angry that a person changes their mind about cigarette regulations after a relative develops lung cancer. Or being angry that a person changes their mind on modern medicine after it is used to save the life of a relative. Not everyone sees all of their beliefs as unshakable pillars that are above change.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    TD claims to be a buddy of his (and may very well be), who thinks that he does, and was pushing for him last time around as Romney's VP pick.



    Yeah. We tried the "let's pick a moderate Republican candidate who isn't strong on social conservatism but who is good on fiscal issues" in 2008 and 2012. It turns out, when you don't do a good job of turning out your base, you loose elections.
    VP is more like it with Portman. In 2008 no Republican was going to win even if they ran Lincoln. Bush fatigue had set in and people were just tired of Republican rule. In November of 2004 Party Identification was 38-35 advantage Republican when Bush won re-election. In November of 2006 when the Republicans lost the congress, lost 6 senate and 33 house seats it was 24-35 advantage Democrats. In 2008 party affiliation was 28-37 in favor of the Democrats. No Republican was going to overcome those odds even if they won the independent vote, McCain lost by 7 points.

    In 2012, the advantage was less, but still to the Democrats 28-33. 5 points, Romney lost the popular by 5 points as independents split down the middle. Now to October of 2014 which is the last numbers I have, this time the Republicans had the advantage in party affiliation 33-29 as Obama fatigue had begun to set in. You know what happened.

    It remains to be seen if Obama fatigue, like Bush fatigue lasts until the end of his presidency. If it does, the Republicans may find themselves in the position the Democrats were in in 2008. Where the name of the nominees mean little.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is like being angry that a person changes their mind about cigarette regulations after a relative develops lung cancer. Or being angry that a person changes their mind on modern medicine after it is used to save the life of a relative. Not everyone sees all of their beliefs as unshakable pillars that are above change.
    who's angry? I'm only pointing out that before you laud a person for holding a position, that you should consider the fact that he holds it not out of principle, but rather out of personal emotional convenience, indicating how importantly he holds the principle you are trying to argue in favor of.

    It's like me arguing that we should lower taxes, and as a point of evidence, I bring up a rich person who is in favor of him personally paying less in taxes. How much credibility are you going to give that as an argument on the principle that lower taxes enable economic growth?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    who's angry? I'm only pointing out that before you laud a person for holding a position, that you should consider the fact that he holds it not out of principle, but rather out of personal emotional convenience, indicating how importantly he holds the principle you are trying to argue in favor of.

    It's like me arguing that we should lower taxes, and as a point of evidence, I bring up a rich person who is in favor of him personally paying less in taxes. How much credibility are you going to give that as an argument on the principle that lower taxes enable economic growth?
    I support people based on the way they've developed their principles. For example, I was pretty supportive of Romney as a person, until he decided to go against his positions in Massachusetts and attack those who didn't pay taxes, healthcare and immigration. Once he did that, I realized he'd changed his views to please the social conservative base. In turn, this senator has nothing to gain from Republicans by supporting gay marriage this early and this publicly. His positions on other issues make him a pariah to the left. That makes me like him. He may not support abortion, however, he doesn't have to. There's no chance of it being overturned. Changing your opinion on an subject that affects you personaly is not something which should be looked down upon.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Being pro gay marriage I would think would hurt Portman in the primaries if he decided to run. I do not think he could ever be nominated by the GOP. Now I have never heard of Portman having presidential ambitions before either. That is new to me.

    There are a lot of fiscal conservatives out there unaligned with the Republicans because of their stances on social issues. I think one day the GOP will have to decide between the religious right and those unaligned fiscal conservatives.
    Like you this is the first I have heard of Portman's presidential aspirations. I know Romney was eyeing him for his administration if he were elected. Up until a year or so ago, Portman was not pro-gay at least in his political life. I think you can check and see he supported DOMA but about 18 months ago he had a son that came out gay and had a partner and wanted to get married. Then he came out in support of gay marriage. Portman is far from a Conservative and never would be considered as a serious candidate. Not just over gay marriage but because he has voted 60 percent of the time against the Republican platform. Some have described him if you want to use colors, he isn't blue, he isn't red, he's a light shade of lavender. But Portman when he did come out for gay marriage knew he would lose support so he immediately became a pro-life advocate overnight to offset the damage.

    I don't agree with you on the Republican party needing to distance itself from the social conservative wing of their party. First off a good number of those social conservatives use to be Democrats till their party no longer supported the same values. Also, a percentage of those who identify themselves as Independents are also those who have left the Democratic party for the same reasons. They make up a good number of voters in this country. And as far as a platform goes, hardly support for gay marriage is in the top ten issues voters see paramount at this time. Though support for gay marriage has increased with the college students to early 30's voters, not so much with others. Last time I checked even between the young the support has leveled off. Even with a consorted effort through Hollywood to make it appear a very common lifestyle.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Like you this is the first I have heard of Portman's presidential aspirations. I know Romney was eyeing him for his administration if he were elected. Up until a year or so ago, Portman was not pro-gay at least in his political life. I think you can check and see he supported DOMA but about 18 months ago he had a son that came out gay and had a partner and wanted to get married. Then he came out in support of gay marriage. Portman is far from a Conservative and never would be considered as a serious candidate. Not just over gay marriage but because he has voted 60 percent of the time against the Republican platform. Some have described him if you want to use colors, he isn't blue, he isn't red, he's a light shade of lavender. But Portman when he did come out for gay marriage knew he would lose support so he immediately became a pro-life advocate overnight to offset the damage.

    I don't agree with you on the Republican party needing to distance itself from the social conservative wing of their party. First off a good number of those social conservatives use to be Democrats till their party no longer supported the same values. Also, a percentage of those who identify themselves as Independents are also those who have left the Democratic party for the same reasons. They make up a good number of voters in this country. And as far as a platform goes, hardly support for gay marriage is in the top ten issues voters see paramount at this time. Though support for gay marriage has increased with the college students to early 30's voters, not so much with others. Last time I checked even between the young the support has leveled off. Even with a consorted effort through Hollywood to make it appear a very common lifestyle.
    True. It wasn't until the SCOTUS ruling on abortion that the religious right became a political power. Then a lot of religious Democrats switched parties. But I think the religious right hit its peak during Reagan and that power has been ebbing very slowly ever since. Yes gay marriage is more of a peripheral issue to other issues that really count more. It is way down on the totem pole so to speak. Abortion is higher on the totem, but that has been decided. It is just some won't let go of it. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned.

    The thing here is a lot of fiscal conservatives believe in small government or what is known as the third tenet of traditional conservatism. Keeping government out of a citizens private business and lives. Letting a woman decide on her own whether or not to have an abortion is more of an individual choice, freedom if you will. Having government dictate to a woman that she can't have an abortion is more of a statist view or action. Gay marriage, once again it is keeping government out of deciding who can or who can't be married. I would personally take it even further and do away with the polygamy laws. Let those involved or individuals decide on their own whom to marry, not government.

    But each of us view things differently, to me this is keeping government out of the bedroom, you might view it entirely different. But I do think at sometime in the future, whenever that is. That the Republicans will have to decide whether to keep the religious right under their umbrella or reach out to those fiscal conservatives who are fairly liberal socially to bring them back into the flock.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Considering Libertarians espouse the nonsense that government should get out of marriage, as where liberals argue for legal recognition of it, I'd say he's a liberal Republican.
    There's no such thing as a Liberal Republican.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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