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Thread: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    This is one of those "not all mammals are monkeys, but all monkeys are mammals" kind of statements. In this case it would be, "Not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage."

    I just googled "remove government from marriage site:debatepolitics.com" (without quotation marks) because DP's own search engine sucks, and found this thread right away. It's highly representative of my experiences with libertarians and discussions on removing government from marriage, especially as it pertains to ssm.

    Feel free to use that search term up there and hop from thread to thread. It's very consistent.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/93008-why-marriage-recognized-government-anyway-2.html


    If you would like to cherrypick random threads from a political debate website to back your claim that Libertarians are antipathic towards gay marriage, fine.

    Here's a thread started by a conservative that shows three Libertarians and myself, another Libertarian, through "likes" (Clax, brothern, criticalthought) defending the institution of marriage against only one libertarian (gaius, who actually is a known supporter of gay marriage) and an anarchist/voluntaryist/ancap/whatever the hell he is today (Henrin).

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-an...-marriage.html

    Consistent?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    If you would like to cherrypick random threads from a political debate website to back your claim that Libertarians are antipathic towards gay marriage, fine.

    Here's a thread started by a conservative that shows three Libertarians and myself, another Libertarian, through "likes" (Clax, brothern, criticalthought) defending the institution of marriage against only one libertarian (gaius, who actually is a known supporter of gay marriage) and an anarchist/voluntaryist/ancap/whatever the hell he is today (Henrin).

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-an...-marriage.html

    Consistent?
    As I said, not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage. Next time someone suggests the removal of government from marriage, look to the left and tell me what you see, and it'll be "undisclosed" or "libertarian."

    And Gaius specifically called for the removal of government from marriage.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    As I said, not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage. Next time someone suggests the removal of government from marriage, look to the left and tell me what you see, and it'll be "undisclosed" or "libertarian."

    And Gaius specifically called for the removal of government from marriage.
    I have yet to see the antipathy....

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    I have yet to see the antipathy....
    I've explained this to Tres already.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I've explained this to Tres already.
    You explained it, I asked for you to back it, you never did. You just made a bunch of posts telling me to look to the left when someone says to get government out of marriage. Even if I were to concede that Libertarians are "consistently" for removing government from all marriages and civil unions entirely, that still would not address said "antipathy towards SSM." As dumb as it is IMO, wanting to get government out of marriage is not indicative of antipathy towards anything other than government.

    Show me the antipathy. DocileLion gave you stellar examples of the Libertarian Party openly and proudly supporting SSM dating all the way back to 1972. Can you provide examples in the same way?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    You explained it, I asked for you to back it, you never did. You just made a bunch of posts telling me to look to the left when someone says to get government out of marriage. Even if I were to concede that Libertarians are "consistently" for removing government from all marriages and civil unions entirely, that still would not address said "antipathy." As dumb as it is IMO, wanting to get government out of marriage is not indicative of antipathy towards anything other than government.

    Show me the antipathy. DocileLion gave you stellar examples of the Libertarian Party openly and proudly supporting SSM dating all the way back to 1972. Can you provide examples in the same way?
    Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.

    You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.
    That's not antipathy.

    an·tip·a·thy
    anˈtēpəTHē/
    noun
    a deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.
    "his fundamental antipathy to capitalism"


    You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?
    No, because that's not really true either.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Yes, Telekat, I get it, not all libertarians want the removal of government of marriage, and those who do frequently don't come right out and voice some direct antipathy toward gay marriage specifically. It just so happens that gay marriage is the only topic in which removal of government is brought up at all, and when it is, you can bet that nine times out of ten it's by a libertarian. The "antipathy" was referring to was the notion that the system failed for ssm becoming legal than recognizing it as a step forward.

    You're too close to this, because I think you think I'm saying something I'm really not, so let's take a different statement that I also believe, but one that doesn't necessarily involve libertarians: "Not all people with Left leaning positions side against Israel, but only Left leaning people side against Israel." Get it?
    Didn't we go over this belief of yours a year of so ago? Your reason for being against it starts with the idea that states would not enforce private gay marriage contracts, and while it is true many would not, it is not true that legally they have any feet to stand on for doing it. As I made clear in that thread when you brought it up, there are two elements that gay marriage needs and both of which has been declared a right in this country; being the right to contract and the right to marriage. Basically, your argument is that because the government can ignore your rights that we need to have more government to make sure they don't ignore rights that have already been declared. It's idiotic. All you have to do is sue the state on the grounds that gays do in fact have a right to marriage and get them to enforce the contract. The only difference between that and what is happening now is that gays are trying to become party to a government license, while my argument would deal with private contract recognition.

    As for your argument that opposition is rooted in antipathy, again that belief of yours has already been dealt with in past threads. The opposition to a marriage license has to deal with government involvement in the private relationships of people and the amount of control the government has over the contract. It has nothing to do with some sort of dislike of gays or whatever.

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