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Thread: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Reagan used social conservatism to get elected in a far different era. Gay marriage failed everywhere it was put to a vote or court challenge at that time, now it's supported by independents and liberals and a sizable minority of conservatives
    People are more pro-life now than they were at that time, and SSM remains a 50/50 ish issue in this country. Social Conservatism is not collapsible to a single issue like SSM, which continues to fail the vast majority of the votes to which it is put.

    But I didn't say "Reagan". I said "George W Bush". 2004 wasn't "a far different era". It was a decade ago.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So the sentiment I see coming from Libertarians is consistently one of antipathy toward ssm rather than the support you assign to them.
    Antipathy? You can be in support of something without it consuming you. I'm pro-choice, but I'm not like the posters who spend 100% of their time down in that section chanting about abortion. I don't think the government should be involved in abortion.

    It sounds like unless a person/party/politician makes SSM a pet project, you don't believe they actually support it.
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Antipathy? You can be in support of something without it consuming you. I'm pro-choice, but I'm not like the posters who spend 100% of their time down in that section chanting about abortion. I don't think the government should be involved in abortion.

    It sounds like unless a person/party/politician makes SSM a pet project, you don't believe they actually support it.
    Antipathy, not apathy.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Antipathy, not apathy.
    Not enough coffee. Sorry.

    I can't speak for any other Libertarian but I personally have no dislike for or aversion to gay people.

    But anyway, wasn't what concerned you was that Libertarians talk about keeping government out of marriage? How is that an indication of antipathy to anything other than government intrusion?
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Not enough coffee. Sorry.
    No sweat.

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I can't speak for any other Libertarian but I personally have no dislike for or aversion to gay people.
    And that's commendable of course, it's just not representative of my experiences when talking to Libertarians in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    But anyway, wasn't what concerned you was that Libertarians talk about keeping government out of marriage? How is that an indication of antipathy to anything other than government intrusion?
    Because of the implication that the system has failed us in some way for including gays in marriage, rather than recognizing it as a step forward.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    No sweat.



    And that's commendable of course, it's just not representative of my experiences when talking to Libertarians in general.



    Because of the implication that the system has failed us in some way for including gays in marriage, rather than recognizing it as a step forward.
    Well, to be honest, I'm pro-SSM for the same reason that I'm pro-choice. Because I don't think the government has a right to intrude on my life or get involved in my body or in the decision of who I marry. I didn't let the government pick my husband for me, and I wouldn't expect them at the same time to say I couldn't marry my husband. To me it isn't about the genders or colors or even the quantity of spouses you want. As long as both parties consent and are of age, Uncle Sam needs to find something else to do.

    That said, marriage is also a legal contract so I don't expect our Uncle to not be aware of marriage, just not be able to say who the parties to the legal contract specifically are, if that makes sense.

    NH is filled with Libertarians. Up here the Libertarians in our state legislature were all in favor of SSM.

    Just poured another cup so the cobwebs are almost gone.
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Well, to be honest, I'm pro-SSM for the same reason that I'm pro-choice. Because I don't think the government has a right to intrude on my life or get involved in my body or in the decision of who I marry. I didn't let the government pick my husband for me, and I wouldn't expect them at the same time to say I couldn't marry my husband. To me it isn't about the genders or colors or even the quantity of spouses you want. As long as both parties consent and are of age, Uncle Sam needs to find something else to do.

    That said, marriage is also a legal contract so I don't expect our Uncle to not be aware of marriage, just not be able to say who the parties to the legal contract specifically are, if that makes sense.

    NH is filled with Libertarians. Up here the Libertarians in our state legislature were all in favor of SSM.

    Just poured another cup so the cobwebs are almost gone.
    It's a fine argument if government is continuing to determine whether or not gays can marry, but as laws are coming around to acceptance of ssm the argument that government should remove itself from marriage is rapidly becoming obsolete. And keep in mind the Libertarians I'm encountering are calling for government to remove itself from marriage in reaction to the new laws recognizing ssm.

    Still, I understand libertarianism covers a wide spectrum, but just as importantly if I were a libertarian I would be careful to state what kind of libertarian I was, since the term seems to describe a highly disparate range of views.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    People are more pro-life now than they were at that time, and SSM remains a 50/50 ish issue in this country. Social Conservatism is not collapsible to a single issue like SSM, which continues to fail the vast majority of the votes to which it is put.

    But I didn't say "Reagan". I said "George W Bush". 2004 wasn't "a far different era". It was a decade ago.
    Opposition to abortion goes up and down like a wave and there is no indication that this is likely to change anytime soon. There is not a huge difference in support/opposition to abortion in younger generations, unlike with same sex marriage.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So the sentiment I see coming from Libertarians is consistently one of antipathy toward ssm rather than the support you assign to them.
    WTF? I don't suppose you have some sort of, I don't know, backing to this claim, do you?

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    WTF? I don't suppose you have some sort of, I don't know, backing to this claim, do you?
    This is one of those "not all mammals are monkeys, but all monkeys are mammals" kind of statements. In this case it would be, "Not all libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage, but only libertarians call for the removal of government from marriage."

    I just googled "remove government from marriage site:debatepolitics.com" (without quotation marks) because DP's own search engine sucks, and found this thread right away. It's highly representative of my experiences with libertarians and discussions on removing government from marriage, especially as it pertains to ssm.

    Feel free to use that search term up there and hop from thread to thread. It's very consistent.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/93008-why-marriage-recognized-government-anyway-2.html



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