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Thread: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

  1. #101
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    1) In what school district in the 1970s did they teach about gay marriage?
    2) You asked me what country I grew up in, as if it had some meaning
    3) Again, in what school district did they teach about gay marriage in the 1970s?
    4) If teaching about hating blacks was irrelevant, why did you bring it up
    5) I don't have any theory and never said I did; I was talking about Rob Portman and using his own words
    1.) once again who said they did, this strawman is a complete failure you
    2.) because the concept of equal rights is foreign to you that made me think you werent from here
    3.) again your strawman fails, quote me saying they did if you cant your lie fails
    4.) also didnt say it was irrelevant how many lies will you post i said it was an example of how a persons teachings is not an excuse like you made it lol
    5.) wrong again we are talking about YOUR words, you said it wasnt sad because it was close to him and made him human and a father, that theory totally fails and has no support hence you dancing around what was actually posted

    ike i said its sad that it took something personal for him to respect the equal rights of others not related to him but im glad he did it later than never

    do you have ANYTHING that supports your claims of:
    "Gay marriage hasn't been a front and center issue for the last 40 years." so that makes it matter to equal rights

    or

    "The issue of gay marriage became very real to him because of his son. That isn't sad. It's called being human and a father." also mattering to his lack of caring about equal rights?

    anything?
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  2. #102
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha Brown View Post
    It doesn't mean his original position wasn't based on principles, it just means his principles were previously based on ignorance
    it's possible, but that speaks right back to the exact same point I made. Either the guy was (from the SSM position) willing to deny you rights based on his feelings, or he decided to abandon his principles (later) in favor of his feelings.
    Just this thing happened with my uncle when my cousin came out as a lesbian some years ago. He found it tough to take at first, but then came to realise, by learning that gay people can be anyone no matter how close and how much you love them, that he had been wrong to be fearful.
    if he's fearful that's weird. My little sister is (she claims) a lesbian (that hasn't stopped her from apparently being attracted to or occasionally dating men), and I don't recall fear anywhere in my reaction, nor do I recall that I had to abandon any of my principles in order to love her.

  3. #103
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) once again who said they did, this strawman is a complete failure you
    2.) because the concept of equal rights is foreign to you that made me think you werent from here
    3.) again your strawman fails, quote me saying they did if you cant your lie fails
    4.) also didnt say it was irrelevant how many lies will you post i said it was an example of how a persons teachings is not an excuse like you made it lol
    5.) wrong again we are talking about YOUR words, you said it wasnt sad because it was close to him and made him human and a father, that theory totally fails and has no support hence you dancing around what was actually posted

    ike i said its sad that it took something personal for him to respect the equal rights of others not related to him but im glad he did it later than never

    do you have ANYTHING that supports your claims of:
    "Gay marriage hasn't been a front and center issue for the last 40 years." so that makes it matter to equal rights

    or

    "The issue of gay marriage became very real to him because of his son. That isn't sad. It's called being human and a father." also mattering to his lack of caring about equal rights?

    anything?
    1) It isn't a strawman. You seem genuinely surprised that I wasn't taught about gay marriage in the 1970s. Can you tell me where gay marriage was being taught?
    2) I'm as American as you are.
    3) Can you name where gay marriage was being taught about in the 1970s or not? If you can't, then stop acting surprised that those of us who didn't learn about it in school had no reason to conjure it up until confronted by it in adulthood.
    4) Who is lying? I never mentioned blacks in my posts. You did. I responded to your mention of blacks.
    5) They weren't my words. I posted why Rob Portman said he evolved.

    Do you have anything to support your claim that this country has been having a national conversation about same sex marriage for the last 40 years?

    You keep mentioning "equal rights". I never said anything about equal rights. I'm talking specifically about SSM which is the subject of this thread. Rob Portman to the best of my knowledge didn't make his position on any other rights a public matter. Please stay on the topic of the thread.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it's possible, but that speaks right back to the exact same point I made. Either the guy was (from the SSM position) willing to deny you rights based on his feelings, or he decided to abandon his principles (later) in favor of his feelings. if he's fearful that's weird. My little sister is (she claims) a lesbian (that hasn't stopped her from apparently being attracted to or occasionally dating men), and I don't recall fear anywhere in my reaction, nor do I recall that I had to abandon any of my principles in order to love her.
    You don't think principles come from feelings? Something feels right, it becomes a principle by which you live? I'm not saying all principles come from feelings, but surely it is/can be a factor? Why can't principles change in line with your feelings? Surely your feelings can be changed by new knowledge?

    I don't understand why you think it's weird that he would be fearful, nor do I understand why you think the fact that you don't have to abandon any principles to love your gay sister has anything to do with his principles which are/were different. He comes from an earlier time, a more rural place than me, he presumed he would lead his only daughter up the aisle one day in the traditional (i.e. heterosexual) style, and to him gay people were perverts, deviants, mentally-ill etc. Then he discovers his only daughter is a lesbian. He doesn't mean to be a bigot, it's not ill-will, it's just ignorance. When it comes to gay people, he has become a lot less ignorant for having a gay daughter. I imagine something similar might be going on with the senator.

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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    If you want him to have a chance, for God's sake don't call him a liberal Republican. He is more of a Goldwater Republican (like me), which is not liberal, but rather pragmatic and reasonable, but still conservative where it matters and in what the party was formed to represent. We fought against slavery for goodness sake - we should be fighting against social slavery in the form of creating second class citizens now.
    The same idiotic labeling is part of what hurt Huntsman at the start of his campaign as well. Liberals look at one or two issues, agree with the politician on that, and just decide to label said political as a "liberal" or even a "moderate" or "sane" or whatever else...ignoring the multitude of actual conservative views that make up the vast majority of their actual view points.

  6. #106
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    1) It isn't a strawman. You seem genuinely surprised that I wasn't taught about gay marriage in the 1970s.
    2.) Can you tell me where gay marriage was being taught?
    3.) I'm as American as you are.
    4) Can you name where gay marriage was being taught about in the 1970s or not? If you can't, then stop acting surprised that those of us who didn't learn about it in school had no reason to conjure it up until confronted by it in adulthood.
    5.)Who is lying? I never mentioned blacks in my posts. You did. I responded to your mention of blacks.
    6.) They weren't my words. I posted why Rob Portman said he evolved.
    7.)Do you have anything to support your claim that this country has been having a national conversation about same sex marriage for the last 40 years?
    8.)You keep mentioning "equal rights". I never said anything about equal rights. I'm talking specifically about SSM which is the subject of this thread. Rob Portman to the best of my knowledge didn't make his position on any other rights a public matter. Please stay on the topic of the thread.
    1.) yes it is because i never mentioned you being taught about gay marriage lol not once and repeating that lie only makes you post fail further
    2.) never said it was hence why its a strawman and it fails
    3.) and yet dont understand equal rights
    4.) thats what i though you cant quote me saying the lie you made up
    5.) you posted a lie, multiples now
    6.) and you made claims on top of his words you cant back up and that have been proven wrong
    7.) can you quote me saying that? if you cant you post fails again
    8.) correct it further shows you dont understand the issue, SSM is an equal rights issue thank you for proving my point and the facts.

    again let me know when you have anything that supports your claim, even one accurate fact would be great . . thanks
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  7. #107
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The government didn't track births for a long time either, til around the 1900s, and we now have people who are having problems proving who they are because they don't have a birth certificate. Times change.
    For sure, for the better on some things and for the worst on others. But nothing stays the same.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  8. #108
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by Samantha Brown View Post
    You don't think principles come from feelings? Something feels right, it becomes a principle by which you live?
    No. What an awful way to construct principles. Feelings are easily malleable, driven by what you had for breakfast, and are inherently untrustworthy. Principles can be informed by moral judgements, sure, but shouldn't be based on what you feel - that can change on any given day. I once had an opportunity to murder a man who had killed a friend of mine, where I would have almost certainly gotten away with it. You better believe my feelings told me to do it. My principles stopped me, and it's a good thing that they did.

    I don't understand why you think it's weird that he would be fearful
    What is the threat? Are lesbians particularly likely to (for example) murder their parents?

    nor do I understand why you think the fact that you don't have to abandon any principles to love your gay sister has anything to do with his principles which are/were different. He comes from an earlier time, a more rural place than me, he presumed he would lead his only daughter up the aisle one day in the traditional (i.e. heterosexual) style, and to him gay people were perverts, deviants, mentally-ill etc.
    Sure, and while I think you are wrong in your description of time here, that's fine. I have a daughter, and have the same assumptions.

    Then he discovers his only daughter is a lesbian. He doesn't mean to be a bigot, it's not ill-will, it's just ignorance. When it comes to gay people, he has become a lot less ignorant for having a gay daughter. I imagine something similar might be going on with the senator.
    I don't really get what you would learn. Oh my gosh, gay people are gay people?!? No way!!! (?)

  9. #109
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. What an awful way to construct principles. Feelings are easily malleable, driven by what you had for breakfast, and are inherently untrustworthy. Principles can be informed by moral judgements, sure, but shouldn't be based on what you feel - that can change on any given day. I once had an opportunity to murder a man who had killed a friend of mine, where I would have almost certainly gotten away with it. You better believe my feelings told me to do it. My principles stopped me, and it's a good thing that they did.
    Not all feelings are that fleeting. That's no kind of rebuttal at all. Perhaps we are using different definitions, but if I held an opinion on something, and then something happened that made me change my mind, or I learned something that changed my perceptive, my feelings about that thing would change. Permanently, not just till later.

    What is the threat? Are lesbians particularly likely to (for example) murder their parents?
    No, the threat is to my uncle's comfortable notions about normality, about his standing in his community, about how he'll explain to the priest, about how he has always seen the world. Of course he doesn't think gay people are going to murder him, but he once thought that their - to him - increased presence, was a threat to order and the social fabric.

    None of these threats have to be real for them to be real in his mind. A mind he has since changed, by the way, thanks to extra lessons at the University of Life!

    Sure, and while I think you are wrong in your description of time here, that's fine. I have a daughter, and have the same assumptions.
    And if she told you she was gay and those things wouldn't be happening, presumably you'd be cool with it? I think the time is important - homosexuality is far more accepted by my generation than by his.

    I don't really get what you would learn. Oh my gosh, gay people are gay people?!? No way!!! (?)
    He learned that there is nothing wrong with being gay, that it's not dirty or shameful or something that other people's people are. His daughter is, and he had to learn to cope with that. Why do you find it so odd that a man would be ignorant of these things?

  10. #110
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    Re: Gay marriage issue now linked to Ohio senator

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    What conservative issues have you voted against?
    None based purely on a moral disapproval of their personal choices.

    I can vote against conservative politicians because their legislative decisions affect me.

    Two dudes getting married does not affect me.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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