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US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

There was never "leniency" anywhere

Good. At least you've made progress and admitted you lied here:

For the third time, the agreement was written that way to leave BHO a free hand.

Obama fulfilled the previous administration's agreement and now you're attacking him for doing so. What some unnamed guy and you expected is entirely irrelevant to political agreements.
 
You could kill every ISIS member and it wouldn't solve a damned thing. It would actually cause more extremism, and promote the belief to Islamic nations that America will take care of their problems if they ever get out of hand. You're an enabler.

Exactly! That's why the allies' strategy in World War II was so stupid. It should have been obvious they could kill every last Nazi and Japanese militarist, and it wouldn't solve a damned thing. Making war on Germany and Japan just caused more extremism. Roosevelt and Churchill were enablers.

Violence never solves anything. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. And arms are for hugging.
 
Exactly! That's why the allies' strategy in World War II was so stupid. It should have been obvious they could kill every last Nazi and Japanese militarist, and it wouldn't solve a damned thing. Making war on Germany and Japan just caused more extremism. Roosevelt and Churchill were enablers.

Violence never solves anything. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. And arms are for hugging.

The fact that you see the conflict with ISIS as in any way analogous with World War II simply proves your ignorance.
 
Ah, so Iraq asked for US forces to stay past the 2011 deadline. Fine. Show us how? Remember, for this statement to be true, Iraq's demands need to have come before the deadline. So I'll wait for you to provide evidence.



Your refusal to even provide a modicum of proof is really funny. However, it doesn't make your false claims true.

In Focus Quarterly reported in 2012:

Given that the U.S. would never agree to leave its people to the mercy of an Iraqi court, Iraqi demands for this condition seemed to be a calculated plan of Shia politicians who needed America out of the way in order to finally advance Iranian hegemony in Iraq. But recent reporting by The New York Times’ Michael Gordon paints a more complicated picture of U.S. incompetence and disengagement. Most notably, the Obama administration’s insistence that any Status of Forces Agreement be ratified by Iraq’s parliament set the stage for the inevitable failure of any agreement.

Simply put, while a number of Iraqi political leaders may have privately wished for continued American involvement to serve as a buffer and broker between both domestic rivals and neighboring regimes, far fewer were willing to support this position in a public, contentious debate. No one wants to be regarded as an American stooge in the prideful arena of Iraqi politics. Backing parliamentarians into a corner by demanding public ratification doomed a new SOFA to failure.

Pathetic. There is really no other way to say it.

Foreign Policy magazine had an interview with Jim Jeffrey, the former US Ambassador to Iraq, in 2012. Here’s what came to light (via The Long War Journal):

Jeffrey didn’t necessarily support the larger troop footprint envisioned by military leaders at the time, which reportedly ranged from 8,000 to 16,000 to 24,000 troops, depending on the military official. But he said he firmly believed that troops in Iraq past 2011 were needed and wanted by the Iraqi government.

Jeffrey said that he and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki personally discussed the idea of extending the U.S. troop presence in Iraq via an executive agreement, which would not have to go through the Iraqi parliament.

Maliki said at one point, ‘Why don’t we just do this as an executive agreement?’
Obama
 
Good. At least you've made progress and admitted you lied here:



Obama fulfilled the previous administration's agreement and now you're attacking him for doing so. What some unnamed guy and you expected is entirely irrelevant to political agreements.

I fear you are living in a parallel universe. There has been no lying, but your obtuse literalism might be construed as dishonest by someone less generous than me. The GWB agreement was intended to create the conditions for his successor, BHO, to negotiate his own agreement. Being POTUS, BHO did indeed have a free hand to do just that. Among those on the U.S. side who dealt with Iraq (and who drafted the agreement, btw) there was a near universal expectation that the point of the exercise was to enable a continuing US troop presence in Iraq.
 
It was not insurmountable; Malaki just didn't want to sign it because he was a sectarian thug controlled by Iran. ISIS came about in part due to Malaki's actions, and Malaki was no longer in a position to play games when his army sh*t its collective pants.

Malaki ASKED for us to stay, by executive agreement. Obama said no, and left Iraq to the wolves.
 
I fear you are living in a parallel universe. There has been no lying, but your obtuse literalism might be construed as dishonest by someone less generous than me. The GWB agreement was intended to create the conditions for his successor, BHO, to negotiate his own agreement. Being POTUS, BHO did indeed have a free hand to do just that. Among those on the U.S. side who dealt with Iraq (and who drafted the agreement, btw) there was a near universal expectation that the point of the exercise was to enable a continuing US troop presence in Iraq.

Ah, so you're saying you didn't lie when you said the agreement the agreement was written that way to leave BHO a free hand and then admitted there was never any leniency in the actual agreement? Well, hm. Alright. Your doublespeak isn't fooling me. Which is t, was the agreement written in such a way as to allow Obama a freehand or not? If it was, show us where. If it wasn't, then retract. Easy, peasy.
 

LMAO - you didn't even read your source, did you?

Obama

But ultimately, the Iraqis did insist that a new SOFA had to go through their parliament and they would not budge on the immunities issue, which made an extension of U.S. forces there impossible, Jeffrey said. He said the insistence on immunity was uniform inside the Obama administration.

"I know of no senior official who challenged that," he said.

In short, the agreement didn't go through because the Iraqis wanted to deny the US extraterritoriality. Do you realize that makes the claim that they 'wanted to work with us' complete bull****? They wanted to have the power to prosecute American personnel and wouldn't budge. You article even admits that's the one reason we refused to stay after the deadline. So thanks for demonstrating just how ridiculously dishonest you've been about this entire thing. Not only did they not want to work with us, they refused to grant the one condition afforded to armies fighting on behalf of another state. **** that nonsense.
 
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Its good fighting evil Kobie. Is this hard to see?

So was Star Wars.

If that's the only similarity you can come up with, then you're simply proving my point. I suppose we should reinstitute conscription, mobilize 12 million military personnel and resort to nuclear weapons until ISIS' government agrees to an unconditional surrender, since it's just like World War II.
 
Malaki ASKED for us to stay, by executive agreement. Obama said no, and left Iraq to the wolves.

Fareed Zakaria: Who lost Iraq? The Iraqis did, with an assist from George W. Bush - The Washington Post

If the Bush administration deserves a fair share of blame for “losing Iraq,” what about the Obama administration and its decision to withdraw American forces from the country by the end of 2011? I would have preferred to see a small American force in Iraq to try to prevent the country’s collapse. But let’s remember why this force is not there. Maliki refused to provide the guarantees that every other country in the world that hosts U.S. forces offers. Some commentators have blamed the Obama administration for negotiating badly or halfheartedly and perhaps this is true. But here’s what a senior Iraqi politician told me in the days when the U.S. withdrawal was being discussed: “It will not happen. Maliki cannot allow American troops to stay on. Iran has made very clear to Maliki that its No. 1 demand is that there be no American troops remaining in Iraq. And Maliki owes them.” He reminded me that Maliki spent 24 years in exile, most of them in Tehran and Damascus, and his party was funded by Iran for most of its existence. And in fact, Maliki’s government has followed policies that have been pro-Iranian and pro-Syrian.
 
Ah, so you're saying you didn't lie when you said the agreement the agreement was written that way to leave BHO a free hand and then admitted there was never any leniency in the actual agreement? Well, hm. Alright. Your doublespeak isn't fooling me. Which is t, was the agreement written in such a way as to allow Obama a freehand or not? If it was, show us where. If it wasn't, then retract. Easy, peasy.

BHO had a free hand from the moment he became POTUS on 20 January 2009. The GWB agreement was written with a 2011 deadline in order to allow BHO well over two years to negotiate his own agreement. QED
 
LMAO - you didn't even read your source, did you?

Obama



In short, the agreement didn't go through because the Iraqis wanted to deny the US extraterritoriality. Do you realize that makes the claim that they 'wanted to work with us' complete bull****? They wanted to have the power to prosecute American personnel and wouldn't budge. You article even admits that's the one reason we refused to stay after the deadline. So thanks for demonstrating just how ridiculously dishonest you've been about this entire thing.

I never said there wasn't opposition in the Iraqi govt, I said Maliki asked for troops to stay, and in fact wanted Obama to simply agree via executive agreement to bypass the opposition in Iraq.

Point being-if Obama wanted to HE COULD HAVE LEFT FORCES THERE. But he chose to lose for votes, and now many thousands are dying horrible deaths.
 
So was Star Wars.

If that's the only similarity you can come up with, then you're simply proving my point. I suppose we should reinstitute conscription, mobilize 12 million military personnel and resort to nuclear weapons until ISIS' government agrees to an unconditional surrender, since it's just like World War II.

Star Wars is fiction. ISIS is really beheading Christian children.
And you apparently can't understand the difference between total war, and low intensity asymmetric conflicts like Obama's war in Iraq.
 
Star Wars is fiction. ISIS is really beheading Christian children.
And you apparently can't understand the difference between total war, and low intensity asymmetric conflicts like Obama's war in Iraq.

No, apparently matchlight can't, since he's the one who made the ridiculous point.

For starters, I am well aware that ISIS is doing some really awful things and really deserves to get its ass kicked, so spare me the appeal to emotion.

Secondly, we haven't HAD a total war since World War II. I figured someone so learned and esteemed as you would know that.

Thirdly, in World War II we were facing two aggressive nation-states (plus a few hangers-on) in a conventional (if extremely large-scale) armed conflict with a large coalition of allies. In the Middle East, we are currently facing a paramilitary extremist organization. To compare them is idiocy of the highest order. I thought you guys didn't like "one-size-fits-all" solutions?

But enough of this. I'm certainly not going to indulge your hackery and get into another pissing match with you, of all people. Dismissed.
 
I never said there wasn't opposition in the Iraqi govt, I said Maliki asked for troops to stay, and in fact wanted Obama to simply agree via executive agreement to bypass the opposition in Iraq.

Point being-if Obama wanted to HE COULD HAVE LEFT FORCES THERE. But he chose to lose for votes, and now many thousands are dying horrible deaths.

Ummm... no you claimed that they wanted to work with us and wanted us to stay. For the Iraqis, "working with us" meant giving up extraterritoriality. That's not only insane it's downright unacceptable by any first world military fighting a war on behalf of another country. Maliki didn't want us to stay and the fact that giving up extraterritoriality was a demand made by him proves that. Are you kidding?
 
I never said there wasn't opposition in the Iraqi govt, I said Maliki asked for troops to stay, and in fact wanted Obama to simply agree via executive agreement to bypass the opposition in Iraq.

Point being-if Obama wanted to HE COULD HAVE LEFT FORCES THERE. But he chose to lose for votes, and now many thousands are dying horrible deaths.

We really needed to leave Iraq. Many thousands died horrible deaths when we were there, and many of them were Americans and our allies. 13 million displaced people in the region; a group that wants to create a religious oligarchy that would be the oppression of people, especially women, would be the worst thing we would see in humanity in our life times if not stopped. This radicalism is spilling blood on the streets of our European allies to whom we owe a great deal of gratitude. Whether or not we should be doing something to render assistance is not debatable in a civilized society. What we should be doing is. Unfortunately your obsession with trying to always point fingers at Obama, the democrats, and the left at every opportunity denies you the opportunity to make arguments on their merits.
 
Ummm... no you claimed that they wanted to work with us and wanted us to stay. For the Iraqis, "working with us" meant giving up extraterritoriality. That's not only insane it's downright unacceptable by any first world military fighting a war on behalf of another country. Maliki didn't want us to stay and the fact that giving up extraterritoriality was a demand made by him proves that. Are you kidding?

It does not matter how many times you attempt to pound this into his head. He will deny it, because it destroys his entire argument.
 
It does not matter how many times you attempt to pound this into his head. He will deny it, because it destroys his entire argument.

It's downright stupid to try and claim that the Iraqis wanted us to stay when the condition they would not budge on was reserving the right to prosecute American soldiers. Does he think the US should have complied with that particular demand as long as our demands were met? ****ing jingoists don't even understand the very real repercussions of these decisions. Should Obama have worked with them on a position they wouldn't budge on? **** them. He made the right decision by not budging to that demand.
 
No, apparently matchlight can't, since he's the one who made the ridiculous point.

For starters, I am well aware that ISIS is doing some really awful things and really deserves to get its ass kicked, so spare me the appeal to emotion.

Secondly, we haven't HAD a total war since World War II. I figured someone so learned and esteemed as you would know that.

Thirdly, in World War II we were facing two aggressive nation-states (plus a few hangers-on) in a conventional (if extremely large-scale) armed conflict with a large coalition of allies. In the Middle East, we are currently facing a paramilitary extremist organization. To compare them is idiocy of the highest order. I thought you guys didn't like "one-size-fits-all" solutions?

But enough of this. I'm certainly not going to indulge your hackery and get into another pissing match with you, of all people. Dismissed.

Kobie, the comparison being made is that they are absolutely evil (unless you are a fan) like the Nazi's or Stalin. Its NOT that they are the same type of threat, or should be fought the same way.
 
Kobie, the comparison being made is that they are absolutely evil (unless you are a fan) like the Nazi's or Stalin. Its NOT that they are the same type of threat, or should be fought the same way.

That certainly seems to be the comparison matchlight was making.
 
Ummm... no you claimed that they wanted to work with us and wanted us to stay. For the Iraqis, "working with us" meant giving up extraterritoriality. That's not only insane it's downright unacceptable by any first world military fighting a war on behalf of another country. Maliki didn't want us to stay and the fact that giving up extraterritoriality was a demand made by him proves that. Are you kidding?

Both Maliki, and the ambassador wanted very much wanted to work with us-to the point that Maliki even made suggestions. Thats what I said.

The point, is that Obama was not some poor bystander helpless to intervene-he COULD HAVE done something-but he did not.
 
Both Maliki, and the ambassador wanted very much wanted to work with us-to the point that Maliki even made suggestions. Thats what I said.

The point, is that Obama was not some poor bystander helpless to intervene-he COULD HAVE done something-but he did not.

What part of the fact that the Iraqis would not budge on us giving up extraterritoriality is not penetrating that brick wall surrounding your cranium? That is a non-starter. Period.
 
We really needed to leave Iraq.

Hey at least you can come out and say it-you were willing to leave Iraq to the wolves if it suited you. It wasn't about Iraq for Obama either-it was about how to take full advantage of the situation for political capital.

Now, since you and I agree something should now be done-the question is WHAT. We know that a few airstrikes here or there make for good news coverage but they aren't substantive. Boots on the ground are. And since we should never fight a war without being willing to fight it-I think we should deploy forces first to expel ISIS, and then to maintain a limited security presence for as long as is needed-NOT until a date on a calendar is reached.
 
Both Maliki, and the ambassador wanted very much wanted to work with us-to the point that Maliki even made suggestions. Thats what I said.

The point, is that Obama was not some poor bystander helpless to intervene-he COULD HAVE done something-but he did not.

This is so ridiculous, it's almost contrary to every fact you've posted so far. Do you realize that extraterritoriality (demanded by Maliki and Iraqi government - as per your source) was not a demand that the US could meet? That makes the claim that they wanted us to stay complete bull****.
 
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