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US Sailors Victims of Videotaped Attack in Istanbul

American said:
That's political, and another discussion. Our soldiers were under lawful orders.
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I understand I am speaking on political. Politics contributed to the attack of these soldiers. Therefore politics need to be discussed. I will say again, despite the legality of orders in the US, that does not make it legal to kill innocent civilians. Just because the Nazis were under orders from Hitler, that did not justify their brutality and killings. Just because American soldiers are under orders does not justify their killings of innocent civilians in sovereign nations because those orders are not just.
 
Wiggen said:
Do you have links to stories about US servicemen being attacked in US airports? I haven't heard of any incidents.
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I see them often in my travels and they are very well respected by everyone.
 
iacardsfan said:
I understand I am speaking on political. Politics contributed to the attack of these soldiers. Therefore politics need to be discussed. I will say again, despite the legality of orders in the US, that does not make it legal to kill innocent civilians. Just because the Nazis were under orders from Hitler, that did not justify their brutality and killings. Just because American soldiers are under orders does not justify their killings of innocent civilians in sovereign nations because those orders are not just.
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And you're basing your claim that American soldiers are targeting innocent civilians in sovereign nations on...?
And perhaps if these sovereign nations were not hosts to terrorists that are behind international attacks on actual innocent civilians and were actually able to hold off those terror elements from spreading terrorism across the globe then an intervention by an outside force would not have been called for.
 
As to the OP, it's disgusting.
The very thought that these thugs would be allowed to attack the military personnel of another country and get away with it is unacceptable. Their faces are all caught on tape and it should be used to file a complaint against them and bring them to justice.
 
Apocalypse said:
And you're basing your claim that American soldiers are targeting innocent civilians in sovereign nations on...?
And perhaps if these sovereign nations were not hosts to terrorists that are behind international attacks on actual innocent civilians and were actually able to hold those terror elements from spreading terrorism across the globe than an intervention by an outside force would not have been called for.
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I'm basing it on the fact that there are significant numbers of civilian deaths. As to your second point, there are more "terrorists" in the United States than any other country around the world according to the FBI. So, are you saying the US should call for outside force to help us out at home?
 
iacardsfan said:
Just because they had orders that were lawful under US law does not mean they are right.
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What were they doing that was wrong? They appeared to be standing in line when attacked, doing harm to no one.
 
iacardsfan said:
I'm basing it on the fact that there are significant numbers of civilian deaths.
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Which is why you couldn't get more wrong about it since numbers never dictate intentions.
If that's what you're basing your argument on then it simply holds no water.

As to your second point, there are more "terrorists" in the United States than any other country around the world according to the FBI. So, are you saying the US should call for outside force to help us out at home?
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When was the last time an American citizen had committed an act of terrorism on non-American soil?
And America is actually known to pursue and deliver justice upon its own criminals, unlike your sovereign countries.
 
Apocalypse said:
Which is why you couldn't get more wrong about it since numbers never dictate intentions.
If that's what you're basing your argument on then it simply holds no water.
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It doesn't work that way. This is the same thing as a mother saying "I was just trying to quiet my baby, I didn't mean to suffocate it."


When was the last time an American citizen had committed an act of terrorism on non-American soil?
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They carry out acts of terror here. Religious terrorists, crazed shooters, bombings.

And America is actually known to pursue and deliver justice upon its own criminals, unlike your sovereign countries.
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So therefore, it is ok that the US kills as many citizens as they want in that country. And we wonder why Americans get attacked by foreigners (its mindsets like that)
 
Grant said:
What were they doing that was wrong? They appeared to be standing in line when attacked, doing harm to no one.
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You missed the beginning of the discussion. In this case I do not condone the attacks. I am referring to the quote in the original article that was a Turk man yelling that Americans were murderers.
 
Apocalypse said:
When was the last time an American citizen had committed an act of terrorism on non-American soil?
And America is actually known to pursue and deliver justice upon its own criminals, unlike your sovereign countries.
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Americans citizens are part of drug gangs who commit considerably more violence than terrorists. If the Mexicans started droning McDonalds if a cartel guy was inside, I doubt you'd accept the dead Americans as mere collateral damage.
 
rathi said:
Americans citizens are part of drug gangs who commit considerably more violence than terrorists. If the Mexicans started droning McDonalds if a cartel guy was inside, I doubt you'd accept the dead Americans as mere collateral damage.
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Up until the second line I thought you were joking, from then on it's a total face palm.
I wouldn't even go into this I'll just note that drug gang members are not terrorists so your argument too holds no water.
 
iacardsfan said:
It doesn't work that way. This is the same thing as a mother saying "I was just trying to quiet my baby, I didn't mean to suffocate it."
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No, it doesn't work the way you want it to work.
You cannot bring up numbers and expect it to make an argument for intention for you.
Unless you are agreeing that Americans do not target civilians and what you are claiming is that they are causing a lot of collateral damage and that's an entirely different approach.

They carry out acts of terror here. Religious terrorists, crazed shooters, bombings.
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Not really, and it's not non-American soil so once more the point you're trying to make, has no basis.

So therefore, it is ok that the US kills as many citizens as they want in that country. And we wonder why Americans get attacked by foreigners (its mindsets like that)
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The US doesn't target civilians.
It's okay for the US to be there and it's perfectly legal because the sovereign countries attacked have proven incapability in handling the international terror threats that their citizens impose.
 
Turkey didn't assault those sailors, a group of anti-government Turkish youths did. Certainly the fringes of a semi-secular Islamic society in the heart of the Middle East is going to be quite extreme. These were essentially Turkish skinheads, not the norm.
 
iacardsfan said:
It does when there is no official declaration of war against a state. If we were at war with Iraq then it would be understandable that the Iraqi civilians would be collateral, but, we are at an unofficial war with a nomadic ideology.
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A distinction without a difference. The civilian collateral damage in a war renders those people just as dead. Your definition makes no sense.
 
Crosscheck said:
No, I don't have any links. But you do not see uniformed members in airports traveling like you did when I was in military in early 70's. Maybe some current members of the military here can comment as to whether they are advised or ordered not to wear uniform.
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When I was traveling in the early '70's, I always wore my uniform because you had to in order to qualify for military standby flights. The early '70's was a much tougher time to be in the military and I never had any problems in airports. It's difficult for me to believe that servicemen are having difficulties in US airports today.
 
Higgins86 said:
As a few of you may know I just spent a good amount of time in Iraq working security with the BBC for the past few weeks we were following Kurdish groups fighting ISIS ( or attempting to). I am back in Cyprus now ready to fly home later today and I can tell you from what I saw the Turks are doing everything they can to wash their hands of any heavy work and are still trying to distance themselves from the West. They wont even properly endorse the Kurds who are defending the border. They are historically a weak country who's own empire was dubbed the "sick man of Europe" as it simply fell away, they are not willing to stand behind us but at the same time try to distance themselves from the middle east. Time to leave them behind as far as I'm concerned and let them fend for themselves, plenty of other countries need support.
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Great post, Higgy. And glad you are back safe and sound.
 
iacardsfan said:
Just because they had orders that were lawful under US law does not mean they are right. I will say again: put yourselves in the shoes of other countries. Imagine another countries soldiers walking down your street with machine guns, tanks, and heavy artillery. They kill your neighbors and family in endless search for enemies of their state. I highly doubt, despite legal authorization of force in that country, you would feel the same way at that point.
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It's a failure as an analogy. If the United States was harboring terrorists who regularly plotted to kill - say Canadians - and they did so with the cooperation of civilians, then Canada would be perfectly justified in finding those people themselves and eliminating them. Especially if the US was unwilling to do so.
 
Apocalypse said:
As to the OP, it's disgusting.
The very thought that these thugs would be allowed to attack the military personnel of another country and get away with it is unacceptable. Their faces are all caught on tape and it should be used to file a complaint against them and bring them to justice.
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Yes, but remember you would be depending on the government of Turkey to do this. In other words, it will never happen.
 
iacardsfan said:
It doesn't work that way. This is the same thing as a mother saying "I was just trying to quiet my baby, I didn't mean to suffocate it."




They carry out acts of terror here. Religious terrorists, crazed shooters, bombings.



So therefore, it is ok that the US kills as many citizens as they want in that country. And we wonder why Americans get attacked by foreigners (its mindsets like that)
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Your posts are beginning to sound a lot like the crap we hear from Islamic extremists. I'm afraid it's not very convincing.
 
rathi said:
Americans citizens are part of drug gangs who commit considerably more violence than terrorists. If the Mexicans started droning McDonalds if a cartel guy was inside, I doubt you'd accept the dead Americans as mere collateral damage.
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Another failed analogy.
 
Amadeus said:
Turkey didn't assault those sailors, a group of anti-government Turkish youths did. Certainly the fringes of a semi-secular Islamic society in the heart of the Middle East is going to be quite extreme. These were essentially Turkish skinheads, not the norm.
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And you are convinced that the government of Turkey will arrest these people and prosecute them? If you are, I have a nice bridge for sale.
 
iacardsfan said:
You missed the beginning of the discussion. In this case I do not condone the attacks. I am referring to the quote in the original article that was a Turk man yelling that Americans were murderers.
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You said this:
Just because they had orders that were lawful under US law does not mean they are right. I will say again: put yourselves in the shoes of other countries. Imagine another countries soldiers walking down your street with machine guns, tanks, and heavy artillery. They kill your neighbors and family in endless search for enemies of their state. I highly doubt, despite legal authorization of force in that country, you would feel the same way at that point.
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How does any of that relate to these three sailors?
 
Wiggen said:
And you are convinced that the government of Turkey will arrest these people and prosecute them? If you are, I have a nice bridge for sale.
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I don't know, but even if they were charged, the charges would be light, since no one was seriously hurt. A failure to charge the assailants does not in any way equate to Turkey being complicit in the attacks.
 
No, it merely means they give tacit approval to them. Turkey is one of the most anti-American countries on the planet, which is ironic considering the billions and billions of tax dollars the American people have given them.
 
Apocalypse said:
Up until the second line I thought you were joking, from then on it's a total face palm.
I wouldn't even go into this I'll just note that drug gang members are not terrorists so your argument too holds no water.
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The Zeta's kidnapped and murdered an entire bus of innocent passengers. You can slap whatever label like on it, but its worse than most attacks arbitrarily labeled as terrorism. Its also not an isolated incident, its systemic. The latest episode about 43 students being murdered is still in the news.

The world is full of really nasty characters, but that doesn't justify killing innocent civilians just to get at them. Its unacceptable for drone operators who are no personal risk to destroy obvious civilians locations like cafes and then pretend to be avoiding collateral damage.
 
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