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Stupidity of the American Voter?

Ikari said:
So your response is an ad hom eh? Very telling.

Come back when you can make a point without all the little childish insults laden in.
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I don't engage you much Ikari, not because your postings are hard to refute, or because your ideas are agreeable, but rather because all too often you resort to this type of whining when confronted on the absurdness of your ideas...

You don't want to be insulted, something I think you read into anything that doesn't agree with your own views btw., Then don't bring in such foolishness.

As for this response, just a dodge as usual.
 
tres borrachos said:
Particularly those among us who saw the ACA for the piece of garbage that it is.
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Oh yes, I mentioned that. That's why it's wrong to say "Americans". Los Stupidos are those who continue their defense of this White House despite the obvious contempt for their own supporters..
 
j-mac said:
I don't engage you much Ikari, not because your postings are hard to refute, or because your ideas are agreeable, but rather because all too often you resort to this type of whining when confronted on the absurdness of your ideas...

You don't want to be insulted, something I think you read into anything that doesn't agree with your own views btw., Then don't bring in such foolishness.

As for this response, just a dodge as usual.
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So you can't actually make an argument then, huh? You don't engage much because it isn't your strong suit. Drive by ad homs seem to be, though.

As for this response, just a dodge as usual. Pathetic.
 
Ikari said:
So you can't actually make an argument then, huh? You don't engage much because it isn't your strong suit. Drive by ad homs seem to be, though.

As for this response, just a dodge as usual. Pathetic.
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Good to see you don't engage in drive-by ad homs.
 
Grant said:
Good to see you don't engage in drive-by ad homs.
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Nope, my responses take into account the arguments and posts directed at me. His past two posts have been drive by ad homs with no substance. Ergo, it does appear to be a strong suit of his. Had there been anything other than crying about liberal this or progressive that, it could have taken a different path. But measurement is as measurement is, yes? Reality cannot be changed.
 
Ikari said:
Nope, my responses take into account the arguments and posts directed at me. His past two posts have been drive by ad homs with no substance. Ergo, it does appear to be a strong suit of his. Had there been anything other than crying about liberal this or progressive that, it could have taken a different path. But measurement is as measurement is, yes? Reality cannot be changed.
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Never noticed any "crying" but Liberals and/or Progressives do tend to exaggerate.

The Left is a natural part of any democracy and as such can participate equally with those who are clearly better informed. Until general knowledge quizzes are set up outside voting booths Liberals/Progressives will continue to have equal rights in all democratic functions and, despite their foolishness, anti-social characteristics and general maintenance, I wouldn't want it any other way.
 
Grant said:
Never noticed any "crying"
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Oh, then you must not have read the post in question. You should likely do the background work before commenting on something so that you know.

j-mac said:
"access" pfft...! what a joke...you use the language of the typical lying democrat, while touting the lie that the progressives told about this pile of dung law that was forced on us....The OWS line of Corporate hate in your messages is loud and clear, but rather infantile IMHO, on approach.
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It's nothing but whining and crying about how democrats lie and how progressives lie and blah blah message of hate. At no point was any issue actually addressed, it was just the same ol' partisan tantrum that has seemingly taken over the Republocrats stock arguments.
 
Ikari said:
Oh, then you must not have read the post in question. You should likely do the background work before commenting on something so that you know. It's nothing but whining and crying about how democrats lie and how progressives lie and blah blah message of hate. At no point was any issue actually addressed, it was just the same ol' partisan tantrum that has seemingly taken over the Republocrats stock arguments.
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Good post. Again you managed to avoid any ad homs.
 
shrubnose said:
The USA sounds like it might be a good country to live in.
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It certainly is, though some neighborhoods could be avoided.


Of course BHO never made Obama a good country. That was done long before he arrived.
 
Ikari said:
So you can't actually make an argument then, huh? You don't engage much because it isn't your strong suit. Drive by ad homs seem to be, though.

As for this response, just a dodge as usual. Pathetic.
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My argument, or point was in my first point to you which you chose to whine about rather than take on...And that is the use of words like 'access', and using the usual OWS style language are fail's....Now, do you have something to contribute, rather than this circular logic you are attempting?
 
Ikari said:
Oh, then you must not have read the post in question. You should likely do the background work before commenting on something so that you know.



It's nothing but whining and crying about how democrats lie and how progressives lie and blah blah message of hate. At no point was any issue actually addressed, it was just the same ol' partisan tantrum that has seemingly taken over the Republocrats stock arguments.
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Oh simple man....:roll: The "issue" is you! And people like you that like to consider themselves some kind of independent thinker, but in reading what it is you have to say, is found out as a run of the mill whiner.
 
j-mac said:
My argument, or point was in my first point to you which you chose to whine about rather than take on...And that is the use of words like 'access', and using the usual OWS style language are fail's....Now, do you have something to contribute, rather than this circular logic you are attempting?
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This is just measured fact. Currently Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare than any other developed nation. Obamacare did nothing to rectify that. It's not actual universal healthcare. It merely states that we all have to buy private insurance, it guarantees full consumership for the insurance companies. Nothing more. There was no real attempt at universal healthcare, Obamacare merely funnels money from the American people to the private insurance companies. It's like saying "universal car coverage" because we all are forced to buy car insurance.

Do you contend this?
 
Ikari said:
This is just measured fact. Currently Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare than any other developed nation.
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How are you measuring access? A large number of people, particularly the young, do not take advantage of employer offered health care. So the "X% of Americans who don't have health care" is NOT the same as "X% of Americans don't have access to health care."
 
pinqy said:
How are you measuring access? A large number of people, particularly the young, do not take advantage of employer offered health care. So the "X% of Americans who don't have health care" is NOT the same as "X% of Americans don't have access to health care."
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These studies are done all the time, here's one.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access, Equity, Quality, Efficiency, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund

Despite having the most expensive health care system, the United States ranks last overall among 11 industrialized countries on measures of health system quality, efficiency, access to care, equity, and healthy lives, according to a new Commonwealth Fund report.
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The United States’ ranking is dragged down substantially by deficiencies in access to primary care and inequities and inefficiencies in our health care system according to Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: How the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally, 2014 Update, by Karen Davis, of the Roger C. Lipitz Center for Integrated Health Care at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health; Kristof Stremikis, of the Pacific Business Group on Health, and Commonwealth Fund researchers Cathy Schoen and David Squires.
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Essentially Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare. Obamacare has really done nothing substantial to address that. It merely makes us all buy insurance. So there's some numbers that will change, but there's no dynamic that would affect the cost or true access by the populace in general. The article I linked seems to hold out hope for the Affordable Care Act, but I don't. It's been in effect for sometime, and I don't think we've seen much movement in terms of pricing and access. If they can produce the honest numbers, I'll change my tune, but it remains to be seen.
 
Ikari said:
These studies are done all the time, here's one.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access, Equity, Quality, Efficiency, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund





Essentially Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare. Obamacare has really done nothing substantial to address that. It merely makes us all buy insurance. So there's some numbers that will change, but there's no dynamic that would affect the cost or true access by the populace in general. The article I linked seems to hold out hope for the Affordable Care Act, but I don't. It's been in effect for sometime, and I don't think we've seen much movement in terms of pricing and access. If they can produce the honest numbers, I'll change my tune, but it remains to be seen.
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I that this is an honest appraisal and and if anyone cares what this old foggie thinks, a pretty accurate one.
 
Ikari said:
These studies are done all the time, here's one.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access, Equity, Quality, Efficiency, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund





Essentially Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare. Obamacare has really done nothing substantial to address that. It merely makes us all buy insurance. So there's some numbers that will change, but there's no dynamic that would affect the cost or true access by the populace in general. The article I linked seems to hold out hope for the Affordable Care Act, but I don't. It's been in effect for sometime, and I don't think we've seen much movement in terms of pricing and access. If they can produce the honest numbers, I'll change my tune, but it remains to be seen.
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I don't really trust the Commonwealth Fund as an objective source, but I do agree completely with your last paragraph. For a couple million people, Obamacare has been a help, but for the remaining 300 million it has not been good at all and will only get worse as the bad parts that got temporary delays start to feel the true effects. I don't understand how even liberals can support Obamacare. Its a disaster.
 
Ikari said:
These studies are done all the time, here's one.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access, Equity, Quality, Efficiency, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund





Essentially Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare. Obamacare has really done nothing substantial to address that. It merely makes us all buy insurance. So there's some numbers that will change, but there's no dynamic that would affect the cost or true access by the populace in general. The article I linked seems to hold out hope for the Affordable Care Act, but I don't. It's been in effect for sometime, and I don't think we've seen much movement in terms of pricing and access. If they can produce the honest numbers, I'll change my tune, but it remains to be seen.
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I think most liberals would argue that it won't have an effect until more people are on it. The entire premise behind lowering costs is:

1) Law of large numbers
2) Pooling
3) Everyone paying in (instead of the current system where people skip out on bills they can't afford)

If a large part of the population is still uninsured, that's all out of the window. Health care is not an option, so why shouldn't our system be based off of that axiom?
 
whysoserious said:
I think most liberals would argue that it won't have an effect until more people are on it. The entire premise behind lowering costs is:

1) Law of large numbers
2) Pooling
3) Everyone paying in (instead of the current system where people skip out on bills they can't afford)

If a large part of the population is still uninsured, that's all out of the window. Health care is not an option, so why shouldn't our system be based off of that axiom?
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I'm not opposed to arguments and discussion for an actual universal healthcare system. My point is that Obamacare isn't it. Obamacare is essentially a payout to the Insurance Companies, nothing more. It's not an attempt at for real Universal Healthcare. Bush had Medicare Part D to payout to his Pharmaceutical buddies, Obama has Obamacare to payout to his Insurance buddies. It's the same corporate elite over the People dynamic.
 
Ikari said:
I'm not opposed to arguments and discussion for an actual universal healthcare system. My point is that Obamacare isn't it. Obamacare is essentially a payout to the Insurance Companies, nothing more. It's not an attempt at for real Universal Healthcare. Bush had Medicare Part D to payout to his Pharmaceutical buddies, Obama has Obamacare to payout to his Insurance buddies. It's the same corporate elite over the People dynamic.
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Its not a payout if people cannot afford health insurance.

If their rates and or deductibles rise to the point where paying the TAX is their only option the Insurance companies LOSE.

If Companies dump their employees to fend for themselves to health insurance companies LOSE.

Obama said himself that his objective was to get rid of the health insurance industry.
 
Ikari said:
This is just measured fact. Currently Americans pay more for and have less access to healthcare than any other developed nation. Obamacare did nothing to rectify that. It's not actual universal healthcare. It merely states that we all have to buy private insurance, it guarantees full consumership for the insurance companies. Nothing more. There was no real attempt at universal healthcare, Obamacare merely funnels money from the American people to the private insurance companies. It's like saying "universal car coverage" because we all are forced to buy car insurance.

Do you contend this?
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Ofcourse not, so your for universal health care?
 
j-mac said:
Ofcourse not, so your for universal health care?
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I could be convinced if we designed an intelligent system. But that's quite the tall order.
 
Ikari said:
I could be convinced if we designed an intelligent system. But that's quite the tall order.
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Well, color me intrigued. I don't think I know a single libertarian that would be in favor of Big Government taking control of such a large portion of the economy. What is it that you would consider "an intelligent system" run by Government? And how would someone convince you?
 
j-mac said:
Well, color me intrigued. I don't think I know a single libertarian that would be in favor of Big Government taking control of such a large portion of the economy. What is it that you would consider "an intelligent system" run by Government? And how would someone convince you?
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Well I try to stay away from absolutes, because one never really knows until a situation is reached. But if you ask the base question as to whether or not government could be used as an aggregate system to provide healthcare and in doing so can provides greater access for less money; the answer is yes. In fact, this is one of the things government does well, much better than private industry. It can aggregate large systems and it can do so on long time scales. So it is indeed possible to gain greater access to healthcare while paying less overall by using government. And if we set a system up like that, then I would pay attention to it and the details. An intelligent system would be one that did exactly this. It's set up for the People, it serves the People well, it functions properly (not like our VA hospitals), it saves us money and allows us to heal our citizens on reasonable time scales. This is possible to do with government, but it's not easy and it will take work to maintain (much like the Republic in general).

But since the answer is yes, I remain open to the possibilities. It would be great to pay less and have more access to healthcare.
 
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