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Thread: Stupidity of the American Voter?

  1. #1151
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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well I try to stay away from absolutes, because one never really knows until a situation is reached. But if you ask the base question as to whether or not government could be used as an aggregate system to provide healthcare and in doing so can provides greater access for less money; the answer is yes. In fact, this is one of the things government does well, much better than private industry. It can aggregate large systems and it can do so on long time scales. So it is indeed possible to gain greater access to healthcare while paying less overall by using government. And if we set a system up like that, then I would pay attention to it and the details. An intelligent system would be one that did exactly this. It's set up for the People, it serves the People well, it functions properly (not like our VA hospitals), it saves us money and allows us to heal our citizens on reasonable time scales. This is possible to do with government, but it's not easy and it will take work to maintain (much like the Republic in general).

    But since the answer is yes, I remain open to the possibilities. It would be great to pay less and have more access to healthcare.
    Couple of things..

    How do you square that with libertarianism, and is it ok to lie to get to the ends?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Couple of things..

    How do you square that with libertarianism, and is it ok to lie to get to the ends?
    Left libertarianism isn't against social programs. There's no such thing as a free lunch, everything has to be paid for. When you use government to achieve a goal, we pay taxes to do so. But you can still respect the rights of the individual and focus on the maximization of the individual's freedom even in a system with social programs. Furthermore, as society becomes more and more complex, you're likely going to need these programs and some amount of government aggregation to ensure open participation and functionality of the system on whole.

    Libertarianism isn't necessarily anarchism.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    ACA is a liberal policy and that is a problem.
    And here we have it folks--the underlying stupidity of the right unveiled. As is apparent from the above post, conservatives genuinely believe that their GOP pols whom they elected actually oppose Obamacare simply because they say they do, completely ignorant of the fact that these same pols get millions from the same insurers who profit handsomely from it.

    Anyone have a theory as to what causes the right's "thinking" (or lack thereof)--their inability to differentiate between GOP rhetoric and their actual motives? ?

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    ACA is a liberal policy and that is a problem. Bailing out the Unions are liberal policies and those are a problem, Wealth redistribution and class warfare are liberal policies and those are problems. Obama's results are a disaster as are all Progressive policies because they destroy individual incentive
    The idea that conservatives don't engage in "class warfare" (which isn't a "policy") is preposterous.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Left libertarianism isn't against social programs. There's no such thing as a free lunch, everything has to be paid for. When you use government to achieve a goal, we pay taxes to do so. But you can still respect the rights of the individual and focus on the maximization of the individual's freedom even in a system with social programs. Furthermore, as society becomes more and more complex, you're likely going to need these programs and some amount of government aggregation to ensure open participation and functionality of the system on whole.

    Libertarianism isn't necessarily anarchism.
    Personally, I think smashing ideologies into a thousand different titles is subterfuge at its core. But, with that said, I believe that the less of my life the Government dictates, and the less of my labor they confiscate to do so the better.

    I believe that is closer aligned with libertarianism than advocating that we have to have control over people to be free. I too pay taxes, but those taxes should allow me a say no?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    And here we have it folks--the underlying stupidity of the right unveiled. As is apparent from the above post, conservatives genuinely believe that their GOP pols whom they elected actually oppose Obamacare simply because they say they do, completely ignorant of the fact that these same pols get millions from the same insurers who profit handsomely from it.

    Anyone have a theory as to what causes the right's "thinking" (or lack thereof)--their inability to differentiate between GOP rhetoric and their actual motives? ?
    You appear to be confusing the GOP with Conservativeism. All Conservatives can do is hope to influence the Republican Party, just as the far left influenced the Democrats.

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Personally, I think smashing ideologies into a thousand different titles is subterfuge at its core. But, with that said, I believe that the less of my life the Government dictates, and the less of my labor they confiscate to do so the better.

    I believe that is closer aligned with libertarianism than advocating that we have to have control over people to be free. I too pay taxes, but those taxes should allow me a say no?
    It's not subterfuge as much as it is political philosophy that is much discussed. Libertarian philosophy has wide application and can span the realm from anarchism to socialism. Even in left-libertarianism, the focus is to limit government force against our free exercise of rights. Does that mean no taxes? Of course not. Does that mean the government cannot work towards general welfare? Of course not. In fact, general welfare is one of the main reasons why we have government in the first place. As pricing becomes outrageous, healthcare access becomes limited more and more to the rich. But it serves society better, and in fact costs us less overall, if we can aggregate that over the entire populace. And then there's the whole morality issue too which can accompany the system if one is so inclined.

    A true Universal Healthcare system isn't advocating control over the people, it's in fact the opposite. It opens the system up for everyone to use while costing us less money in the end. I'm not 100% sure why folk would be against paying less and getting more.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    A lawless regime? Wow, I just checked out of my window but I don't see the riots starting yet. Please, keep me posted.


    You are forgetting the "stupid" American voter.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Love how liberals believe they know what a living wage is for everyone else and how liberals always buy the rhetoric from others who don't have a clue as well. Let's face it, Gruber nailed it
    LOL!

    The term "living wage" was the invention of a far left socialist leader in Canada in the 70's. What we have seen in the so-called application is that that means you have to become a union member.

    The rest is ornaments on a bare Christmas tree, where "supplemental programs", "higher minimum wage" and "training programs" become vote buying gimmicks hurled out in advance of election campaigns which are deliberately designed to affect leftist supporters by a six to one margin. We have lived with this since he 1930's, neither their tactics nor their ideas change, only the names to disguise previous failures.

    "Living wage" is what they say it is, and no matter how high you raise the official poverty line, it will never be enough, especially during elections.

    And all the while, those elected and their hangers on drive Mercedes and live in ocean view homes, with apparently very "livable wages" from generous taxpayers.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Stupidity of the American Voter?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Libertarians are already awake. Right-wingers still need their pacifier--

    "Prolife, nuke the arabs, deport the spics, kill all the fags, GUNS GUNS GUNS HELL YEAH!"
    Wow, stereotype much? Why don't you stereotype liberals and Democrats? I assure you that sentence doesn't describe how I feel but doubt anything is going to change your mind. I am for a limited central govt. where personal responsibility is left to the person and the states/local communities as well as charities. I don't trust a bureaucrat in D.C. vs a bureaucrat that lives in my neighborhood who I can see whenever I want and someone who has to look me in the eye for policies he has helped pass.

    Our founders put power closer to the people not in a massive central govt. This massive central govt. has brainwashed a lot of people yet those people never ask why have so many become dependent on that govt? Why do we have so many being funded by the taxpayers especially for personal responsibility issues. I have yet to get an answer to that question? Seems that far too many think with their hearts and not their brain. Name for me ONE Federal Social program that cost what it was supposed to cost, did what it was supposed to do, solved a problem and went away? JUST ONE!!

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