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Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

Who do you think helped to put the network in place? Hint: The government.

And that magically makes it more expensive to dig up thousands of miles of dirt to lay cables?

Unless your less-expensive alternative is "not have an internet."
 
And that magically makes it more expensive to dig up thousands of miles of dirt to lay cables?

Unless your less-expensive alternative is "not have an internet."

Jesus. Who said anything about an alternative? I'm saying the network is nonsense as it is completely unworkable for anyone but the government to build. If you want competition in an industry it would help to not put in place networks that have a price tag only government can afford.

Simply put, If the price tag is outside anyone's range in the private sector your network sucks.
 
Increasing the capacity of a network is not an inexpensive thing.
True. But as people rely on the Internet for more services, and more real-time services (streaming video, VOIP etc), they're going to have to increase that capacity anyway.


They just may have a situation where they can't afford to increase their network capacity.
They don't. Comcast and Verizon in particular have some pretty fat margins. Smaller ISPs, that don't run their own VOD services, will have to increase bandwidth anyway to keep up.


Again, you aren't going to get 10 lbs of crap through a 5 lbs pipe. Bandwidth abusers, those who ruin it for everyone else, should be throttled back somewhat. It's called managing your network resources to maintain the greatest number of satisfied customers.
This isn't really about traffic shaping for user data management. It's about companies like Comcast or Verizon throttling and/or extorting money out of direct competitors, like streaming video or VOIP services.


Yes, Comcast, AT&T U-Verse, and a few others are the largest ones, but there are a lot of smaller ones too.
You sure about that? Apparently the top 17 cable/telco companies have 93% of the US broadband market. And I've gotta say, I have some doubts that WOW will have much luck pushing around Netflix, with its 740k subscriber base.

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Suffice it to say, this sounds like the government suffering from the delusion that they can manage an ISPs network better than the ISP can themselves....
Or, it's about making sure the cable companies don't stack the deck in favor of their own phone and VOD services.

Plus, this isn't a government idea. Techies and private citizens have been pushing this idea for years for at least 8 years now, and it's pretty much how the Internet was developed.
 
Some Republicans will oppose this...simply because Obama supports it.

I support a free internet. I need to brush up on what the implications are if the internet becomes a title II and is regulated as a public utility. Does that mean the FCC can censor shows like it does with the radio?
 
What he really said was to reclassify the internet as a public utility. Or seize control of it.
I find it odd that he was perfectly good with giving away authority but now wants it.
If you think this is a boon you really need to think a little harder.

The internet has become or is becoming a utility. Like water and electricity, there are fewer and fewer businesses that can function without internet access. Cash registers are often connected in order to monitor inventory and sales. Can you imagine an office environment without internet?
 
The internet has become or is becoming a utility. Like water and electricity, there are fewer and fewer businesses that can function without internet access. Cash registers are often connected in order to monitor inventory and sales. Can you imagine an office environment without internet?

Reclassifying it will upset some of the Supreme Court rulings from the last 10 years. It will be interesting to hear the pros and cons of the plan. My biggest fear is having a government regulate the internet. It needs to be a hands off place. Any regulation by the government will be a power grab. With power they can control the flow of information. That is possibly the worst outcome.
 
And that magically makes it more expensive to dig up thousands of miles of dirt to lay cables?

Unless your less-expensive alternative is "not have an internet."


You don't have to build new networks, simply allow others to resell what's already there. We, after all, paid to have it all built anyway. Much the same as gas and electricity are being resold in most markets. Soon enough the internet will be fast enough wirelessly that cabling or "new" cabling will not be necessary, at least in the short term.

Tim-
 
Reclassifying it will upset some of the Supreme Court rulings from the last 10 years. It will be interesting to hear the pros and cons of the plan. My biggest fear is having a government regulate the internet. It needs to be a hands off place. Any regulation by the government will be a power grab. With power they can control the flow of information. That is possibly the worst outcome.

The whole point of net neutrality is to keep ISP businesses from choking off sites that don't pay them extra money. It's not about the govt. regulating; it's about the govt saying "the net is for everyone, hands off ISPs". I would think everyone on all sides of the political spectrum would be in favor of this, but apparently Ted Cruz and people like him are all about big business taking over the internet.

The internet should be available for use by all providers, not by who the ISPs choose.

In terms of the govt starting the networks - certainly the internet started in the govt world, as part of ARPANET, and the govt has encouraged its spread. I think we all benefited from that particular govt focus. Imagine the chaos if every ISP in every town set up its own local standards and then tried to connect! I agree it would be nice to have more options, but as stated it's very expensive to lay cable; a company coming into a town needs reassurance that it will have a market before it pays all the money up front to lay cable. That's the advantage to DSL in that it goes over phone lines that already exist. But where I live, it's DSL or Satellite; I don't have a cable option. And Satellite doesn't work because of upload/download limits.

We need net neutrality. And I personally would like to see the govt push for higher speeds in rural areas; my DSL is 4.5 mgs download, and my phone company can't afford to do much more - they can't lay fiber to the house, for instance. But that's another topic.

Without net neutrality, we have an internet that is controlled by a handful of big ISPs instead of the wide open marketplace we have now.
 
The whole point of net neutrality is to keep ISP businesses from choking off sites that don't pay them extra money. It's not about the govt. regulating; it's about the govt saying "the net is for everyone, hands off ISPs". I would think everyone on all sides of the political spectrum would be in favor of this, but apparently Ted Cruz and people like him are all about big business taking over the internet.

The internet should be available for use by all providers, not by who the ISPs choose.

In terms of the govt starting the networks - certainly the internet started in the govt world, as part of ARPANET, and the govt has encouraged its spread. I think we all benefited from that particular govt focus. Imagine the chaos if every ISP in every town set up its own local standards and then tried to connect! I agree it would be nice to have more options, but as stated it's very expensive to lay cable; a company coming into a town needs reassurance that it will have a market before it pays all the money up front to lay cable. That's the advantage to DSL in that it goes over phone lines that already exist. But where I live, it's DSL or Satellite; I don't have a cable option. And Satellite doesn't work because of upload/download limits.

We need net neutrality. And I personally would like to see the govt push for higher speeds in rural areas; my DSL is 4.5 mgs download, and my phone company can't afford to do much more - they can't lay fiber to the house, for instance. But that's another topic.

Without net neutrality, we have an internet that is controlled by a handful of big ISPs instead of the wide open marketplace we have now.

There is nothing you said I disagree with. My only issue, is that the government will be regulating the net, the same way they do air waves and TV. That is the part I am interested in. What will be the impact of the government having a say in the utility.

I am with you. Infrastructure upgrades are greatly required throughout the country. Rural areas especially.
 
There is nothing you said I disagree with. My only issue, is that the government will be regulating the net, the same way they do air waves and TV. That is the part I am interested in. What will be the impact of the government having a say in the utility.

I am with you. Infrastructure upgrades are greatly required throughout the country. Rural areas especially.

How much innovation is going on in the public utilities? Doesn't seem like much.
Lots of innovation continues on the Internet. Turning the Internet into a public utility is going to stifle the innovation?

The Internet, and innovations built on the Internet, run at the speed of the Internet, quickly and fleet a foot. Public utilities can't, don't and will never. You want to turn the Internet into a public utility with feet of clay?
 
Jesus. Who said anything about an alternative? I'm saying the network is nonsense as it is completely unworkable for anyone but the government to build. If you want competition in an industry it would help to not put in place networks that have a price tag only government can afford.

Simply put, If the price tag is outside anyone's range in the private sector your network sucks.
If it was possible to build a network that delivers this much data this fast for a small enough amount of money that anyone could compete, why hasn't that happened?

Oh wait. It's not. That's why you don't have an alternative. Your alternative, like I just said, was literally "don't have an internet."

"The internet is nonsense."
-A guy, posting on the internet.

Let's hear your ideas for a different network that doesn't have such a large price tag.
 
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How much innovation is going on in the public utilities? Doesn't seem like much.
Lots of innovation continues on the Internet. Turning the Internet into a public utility is going to stifle the innovation?

The Internet, and innovations built on the Internet, run at the speed of the Internet, quickly and fleet a foot. Public utilities can't, don't and will never. You want to turn the Internet into a public utility with feet of clay?

Um, this is a pretty ridiculous notion. Innovation via the internet happens because the internet is a tool to transfer information. There are nearly infinite things you can do with information.

Water pipes are a tool to transfer water. What sort of innovation do you think water would undergo if that darned government didn't step in and stop it? How many ideas can you think of for water transportation beyond "is clean" and "comes out of the faucet at the rate and temperature I desire?"

It just staggers me that people are so blindly anti-government that they just assume net neutrality must be a bad thing because the government is talking about doing it. Net neutrality is why the internet has been so innovative. Net neutrality is the reason that little startups like Facebook can rise to supplant MySpace. It's also why a little forum like DebatePolitics can exist without being relegated to the slow lane because they don't have the money to pay off Comcast.
 
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The government wanting to control the medium by which most speech is conducted today. What could possibly go wrong?
 
Obama want the feds to run and rule the internet like any decent socialist state.
 
My only issue, is that the government will be regulating the net, the same way they do air waves and TV.
They won't be the same.
The government wanting to control the medium by which most speech is conducted today. What could possibly go wrong?
They won't "control" it in the way that you seem to be implying.
Obama want the feds to run and rule the internet like any decent socialist state.
lol. That one is is just way out there.
 
There is nothing you said I disagree with. My only issue, is that the government will be regulating the net, the same way they do air waves and TV.
That's not even remotely correct.

Government regulation of the spectrum is quite extensive. It determines who can use what portions of the spectrum in what geographic areas. It ensures that signals overlap. It required TV broadcasters to ditch analog signals and switch to digital. It censors a great deal of the airwaves.

All that net neutrality requires is that ISP's treat all traffic equally. It doesn't involve government divvying up bandwidth, or censoring language, or determining which ISP's can operate in which regions.


What will be the impact of the government having a say in the utility.
It will help prevent a specific anti-competitive abuse by certain monopolistic ISP's / content providers. That's pretty much it.
 
They won't be the same.

They won't "control" it in the way that you seem to be implying.
lol. That one is is just way out there.
Of course they will. The government will use taxes, fees and regulations to create the outcome they want all in the name of fairness as they see it.
 
How much innovation is going on in the public utilities? Doesn't seem like much.
Which utilities? What innovations have you been researching?


Lots of innovation continues on the Internet. Turning the Internet into a public utility is going to stifle the innovation?
Treating telephone lines like public utilities did not stop innovations in mobile phones. Treating energy as a utility hasn't stopped research into sustainable energy.

Net neutrality also won't stop anyone from developing new technologies that are delivered via the Internet. In fact, it should help it quite a bit, since it won't allow ISP's to slow down or block providers of new services that might compete with something the ISP offers.

Or, to put it another way: net neutrality ensures that the Internet operates the same way it did until around 2004. I'd say that environment allowed quite a bit of innovation to flourish.
 
It will help prevent a specific anti-competitive abuse by certain monopolistic ISP's / content providers. That's pretty much it.

Wrong. It allows those content providers to monopolize the internet by sucking up bandwidth with their 1,000 cache servers that will constantly jump the line ahead of other sites who servers are further away.

Regardless, if Obama is getting involved at this point in the game, it is probably because the intelligence community sees a downside to their 24/7 spying on people if sites get throttled.
 
And that magically makes it more expensive to dig up thousands of miles of dirt to lay cables?

Unless your less-expensive alternative is "not have an internet."

I think there's some confusion as to what the internet actually is. Your ISP isn't the internet. The internet is a network, or rather a network of networks.

To understand this you need to understand how the internet was created. In 1969 DARPA funded ARPANET. The idea was to create a robust decentralized network made up of interconnected small computers called Interface Message Processors (Routers). Instead of every computer being physically connected to every other computer, the routers used TCP/IP and packet switching to route packets from one router to another until they reached their destination. At this point the internet was very small, consisting of UCLA, Stanford, UCSB, and University of Utah.

Then in 1985, the National Science Foundation began sponsoring multiple coordinated projects to expand this concept forming NSFNET. In 1986 the internet backbone was composed of a number of 56kps links. These quickly became saturated, and the NSF funded 13 nodes to be interconnected with T1 lines. Then in 1991 this was expanded to 16 nodes with T3 interconnects forming ANSNet. They also began to look into joint networks involving both for profit ISPs and non profit research institutions.

They settled on a simple concept: settlement-free interconnection. This forms the backbone of the internet today. On the backbone of the internet, everyone routes everyone else's traffic regardless of what it is and without any packet based fees. If my network gets a packet addressed to somewhere else, then I send it through my network to its destination. I don't slow it down, or charge an additional fee. THAT is what makes the internet so powerful.

ISPs like Comcast connect you to the "Net Neutral" backbone of the internet. Your traffic goes You -> ISP -> Tier 2 Network -> Tier 1 Network -> Tier 2 Network -> ISP -> Destination.

They're kind of like your power distribution company. Power distribution companies (by in large) don't produce electricity, they just deliver it to your house. As such, the power companies aren't allowed to impose regulations on what you do with that power. For example, a power company isn't allowed to produce their own line of refrigerators and then charge you extra for or entirely block power to any other brand of refrigerator.

Being against net neutrality is very much like being for the power company being allowed to decide which type of light bulbs you use or refrigerator you own. You're paying for the power coming into your house. Why would anyone support power companies deciding what you do with it?

The same things goes for Net Neutrality. ISP's sell you a connection to the internet. You pay for that bandwidth. What you do with it is your business, not theirs. Comcast doesn't get to decide which search engine you use, what sites you shop on, and where you get your news. Without net neutrality ISPs can do things like block or slow down anything they find objectionable. Someone writes a detailed complaint about the iSP? Well maybe you don't get to see that.

Is that really what you want?
 
Treating telephone lines like public utilities did not stop innovations in mobile phones. Treating energy as a utility hasn't stopped research into sustainable energy.

Ahem...that research was done by the government.
 
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Wrong. It allows those content providers to monopolize the internet by sucking up bandwidth with their 1,000 cache servers that will constantly jump the line ahead of other sites who servers are further away.
So it's better that Verizon can push its own VOIP and streaming video services ahead of Netflix and Vonage, to make competing products look inferior?

Net neutrality cannot, and is not designed to, overcome the limitations of physics. It is designed to ensure that ISPs act like ISPs, rather than abuse their position to push their own services on their customers.


Regardless, if Obama is getting involved at this point in the game, it is probably because the intelligence community sees a downside to their 24/7 spying on people if sites get throttled.
Ah yes, the conspiracy theory. Nice.

Actually, Obama's actions suggest the opposite. The NSA relies on quite a bit of goodwill from the ISPs, and the ISPs are against NN. NN also has nothing to do with the tapping / surveillance efforts by the NSA. Go figure.
 
What he really said was to reclassify the internet as a public utility. Or seize control of it.
I find it odd that he was perfectly good with giving away authority but now wants it.
If you think this is a boon you really need to think a little harder.

I'm having to think a little harder to understand your premise.

"Seize control of it" ..."giving away authority"..What the hell are you talking about.
 
Greater Freedom through Greater restrictive regulation. Typical Leftist BS.

You do understand that the government isn't really engaging in restrictive regulation, rather they are protecting consumers from companies that want to slow down your online services in order to get more money from you?
 
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