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Thread: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Bull****. No ISP can give every user full bandwidth that they sell simultaneously. If the sell you 54 Mbs, then you get a share of their total. NFW every single user gets all 54 Mbs all at the same time.

    Further, relying upon the government or even wishing the government to do something is a weakness shows someone to be a selfish moron. If you and others want this "net neutrality" then start a company that offers it. Get all your buddies together, collect investments, and work at displacing the others. Otherwise, FOAD and burn in hell like a good socialist should.
    I'm pretty sure that this post is well outside the acceptable levels of civility for this forum and by rights should be reported. FOAD and burn in hell? You probably should chill out and ask yourself why on earth are you so upset at people who are for net neutrality. It's NOT in any way shape or form partisan.

    ISPs are not the internet. They don't own the internet. They don't control traffic on the internet. They only control traffic between you and the internet.

    Here's a thought experiment. What would you think if an ISP decided to prioritize all traffic coming from Speedtest.net by Ookla - The Global Broadband Speed Test in order to make it look like their connect was faster than it actually was. Lets say the result of this was that is that your connection lags every-time someone else decides to run a speed test. So now you cant watch a glitch free movie because your ISP wants to pad it's speed scores.

    THIS is what you're arguing for.

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I think there's a common misconception as to how the internet actually works. Your ISP doesn't own or run the internet. By definition, no entity does. The internet is essentially a collection networks connected across the world by high speed data lines. Each of these lines are owned/leased/operated by many different entities. But it doesn't matter. That's how the internet works. These tier 1 networks have agreed to route every other networks traffic without charging packet based fees. In turn, the other networks will route their traffic.

    To give you some idea, you can use a utility like traceroute or tracepath. Here's an online implementation:
    https://w3dt.net/tools/tracepath

    Enter an address and it'll show you the addresses of all of the computers you've gone through to connect to that site. You'll note that your ISP is typically only the first or second hop. Those are the lines in question.

    That first hop is what we're dealing with here. Any web based service is going to have to connect to the internet. They've already paid for the bandwidth to connect to the internet at large. If they use too much, then all of their customers will be affected.
    I never said that the ISPs own the Internet. I said they own their network. And, yes, you describe how the traffic gets from your home PC through the ISPs network to the Internet perfectly, but my experience is that it's typically around 3 or 4 hops, but details, details. Over all you are 100% correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Net Neutrality is dealing with something completely different. What has been happening is that ISP's have been treating packets differently based on where they come from. If a content company is willing to pay them extra, then they will give those bits priority.. but only on the last hop from ISP to you. If a content company refuses, then those bits are delayed or blocked. Again, this has nothing to do with hosting. Those companies have already paid once to connect to the internet. This is an extra fee that those companies have to pay. It's pretty much extortion.
    Yeah, I realize that it's got nothing to do with hosting. Don't think that ever entered into what I posted.

    If a content company wants to invest money by putting direct high speed lines from their source system to the head end of an ISP's network to deliver their content faster / better to that ISPs customers, I don't see the problem. Seems like you wouldn't either.

    If a content provide is trying to dictate to an ISP that by entering into an agreement that the content provider's competitors be penalized, i.e. delayed, de-prirotized, I think it foolish for the ISP to accept being dictated to like that, and would expect them to just say no. Internal network management being the sole responsibility of the ISP to provide the most of their customers the best possible user experience in as many cases as possible. What's in it for the ISP other than pissed off customers, which is not in their best interests.

    If it's the ISP that trying to hold the content providers hostage, extorting money from them and if not, to de-prirotizing the content providers traffic, What's in it for the ISP other than pissed off customers, which is not in their best interests.

    Cue Bono? Who benefits?

    If the government get's it's fingers into this pot, it's a sure bet that they'll be wanting to dictate things that they shouldn't be allowed to dictate, if not now, then surely in the very near future.

    Are we certain that government regulation and intervention is the best answer to this problem? Seems to me that if an ISP's customer base is pissed off and leaves them, that this is what should be the stick in this arena.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I never said that the ISPs own the Internet. I said they own their network. And, yes, you describe how the traffic gets from your home PC through the ISPs network to the Internet perfectly, but my experience is that it's typically around 3 or 4 hops, but details, details. Over all you are 100% correct.



    Yeah, I realize that it's got nothing to do with hosting. Don't think that ever entered into what I posted.

    If a content company wants to invest money by putting direct high speed lines from their source system to the head end of an ISP's network to deliver their content faster / better to that ISPs customers, I don't see the problem. Seems like you wouldn't either.

    If a content provide is trying to dictate to an ISP that by entering into an agreement that the content provider's competitors be penalized, i.e. delayed, de-prirotized, I think it foolish for the ISP to accept being dictated to like that, and would expect them to just say no. Internal network management being the sole responsibility of the ISP to provide the most of their customers the best possible user experience in as many cases as possible. What's in it for the ISP other than pissed off customers, which is not in their best interests.

    If it's the ISP that trying to hold the content providers hostage, extorting money from them and if not, to de-prirotizing the content providers traffic, What's in it for the ISP other than pissed off customers, which is not in their best interests.

    Cue Bono? Who benefits?

    If the government get's it's fingers into this pot, it's a sure bet that they'll be wanting to dictate things that they shouldn't be allowed to dictate, if not now, then surely in the very near future.

    Are we certain that government regulation and intervention is the best answer to this problem? Seems to me that if an ISP's customer base is pissed off and leaves them, that this is what should be the stick in this arena.
    I want the least amount of total regulation possible. I don't want government regulation, and I don't want regulation imposed by my ISP. So I'm willing to accept a small amount of government regulation to prevent much more intrusive ISP regulation.

    Currently ISPs don't have to tell the customers that they're throttling some sites. The "pissed off consumer" is more likely to be upset with the content provider that's being slowed than the ISP who's intentionally slowing it.

    All in all, ISPs are much more like power companies than they are cable companies. Power companies are highly regulated, cable companies are not. Who's hated more?

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I want the least amount of total regulation possible. I don't want government regulation, and I don't want regulation imposed by my ISP.
    Up to this point we are in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    So I'm willing to accept a small amount of government regulation to prevent much more intrusive ISP regulation.
    But you lost me here. I simply don't trust the government in this role. I recognize, as you do, how important the Internet is for the future, and I can't see anything but bad things with government's fingers in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Currently ISPs don't have to tell the customers that they're throttling some sites. The "pissed off consumer" is more likely to be upset with the content provider that's being slowed than the ISP who's intentionally slowing it.
    Yeah, that's probably true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    All in all, ISPs are much more like power companies than they are cable companies. Power companies are highly regulated, cable companies are not. Who's hated more?
    Who's hated more? The telephone company. LOL. The government too.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What these internet companies want is a tiered pay system, so you pay to get access to Youtube and Netflix and that they dictate what sites you can visit..... that is something everyone should be fighting against, because that will mean even higher prices for internet services.
    Yep, just like my loathsome cable TV company. Any interesting channel above basic is in a tier, but..not the same tier...god forbid. If I want BBC America, Fox Soccer and Independent Film Channel, I have to buy 3 different tiers and get lots of terrible channels I don't ever want.

    Obama is doing the right thing on net neutrality, the internet providers want to screw us blind.
    "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    If Obama can stand in front of the nation on TV and out right lie about ObamaCare a great multitude of times,what makes you think you can trust him and believe him in this case?
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I'm pretty sure that this post is well outside the acceptable levels of civility for this forum and by rights should be reported. FOAD and burn in hell? You probably should chill out and ask yourself why on earth are you so upset at people who are for net neutrality. It's NOT in any way shape or form partisan.

    ISPs are not the internet. They don't own the internet. They don't control traffic on the internet. They only control traffic between you and the internet.

    Here's a thought experiment. What would you think if an ISP decided to prioritize all traffic coming from Speedtest.net by Ookla - The Global Broadband Speed Test in order to make it look like their connect was faster than it actually was. Lets say the result of this was that is that your connection lags every-time someone else decides to run a speed test. So now you cant watch a glitch free movie because your ISP wants to pad it's speed scores.

    THIS is what you're arguing for.
    Apparently, you somehow do not understand the meaning of "otherwise".

    It is partisan because the left want "mommy government" to kiss their booboos and give them what they want. Your points so far have been that the government should do something instead of people making a decision and then take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Instead, just like a 3 year old, you want "mommy government" to something for you, aka, you are acting like a socialist.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Meaning what, you oppose any government interference, with any industry, regardless of the potential benefits, because it might overreach? That doesn't make any sense.
    Name one program where the government hasn't overreached. It is in the government's nature to overreach.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Apparently, you somehow do not understand the meaning of "otherwise".

    It is partisan because the left want "mommy government" to kiss their booboos and give them what they want. Your points so far have been that the government should do something instead of people making a decision and then take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Instead, just like a 3 year old, you want "mommy government" to something for you, aka, you are acting like a socialist.
    You've clearly been on this board long enough to know that you were over the line. I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable.
    Further, relying upon the government or even wishing the government to do something is a weakness shows someone to be a selfish moron. If you and others want this "net neutrality" then start a company that offers it. Get all your buddies together, collect investments, and work at displacing the others. Otherwise, FOAD and burn in hell like a good socialist should.
    Do you actually have a reason why you're against Net Neutrality?

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    Re: Obama Urges F.C.C. to Adopt Strict Rules on Net Neutrality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    You've clearly been on this board long enough to know that you were over the line. I'm sorry, but this is unacceptable.
    Do you have a quarter? Use it to call someone who cares. It's not exactly the first time I've told socialist scum that human race would be better of if the all would just kindly die.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Do you actually have a reason why you're against Net Neutrality?
    Pull your head out of your ass. I haven't been arguing against "Net Neutrality". I've been arguing about the government being involved. It's a minor issue, at best, and definitely something people could pull off on their own without any government involvement if they would only grow up, be responsible and do things for themselves, instead of whining to their "Mommy", the government, to do something. It has nothing to do with "Net Neutrality", it is about "Government Neutrality" moron.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

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