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Thread: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Grant is the one who said that military force alone wasn't enough. I was just asking him for some clarification of his position.
    You're the one that implied anyone ever said anything about military force alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Not that it's not a laudable goal, but some things are simply not accomplished by military force alone.
    You're the one that introduced the concept of "military force alone" into this thread, no one else.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You're the one that implied anyone ever said anything about military force alone.



    You're the one that introduced the concept of "military force alone" into this thread, no one else.
    Allow me to rephrase, then:

    Not that it's not a laudable goal, but some things are simply not accomplished by military force.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Allow me to rephrase, then:

    Not that it's not a laudable goal, but some things are simply not accomplished by military force.
    And it was never said that military force would do that. Of course other influences and pressures need to be exerted. I honestly thought that went without saying. In Germany, South Korea, and Japan, there were other forces successfully used aside from military power. In South Vietnam, other forces were used less successfully. But rarely is military force by itself used, no?
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And it was never said that military force would do that. Of course other influences and pressures need to be exerted. I honestly thought that went without saying. In Germany, South Korea, and Japan, there were other forces successfully used aside from military power. In South Vietnam, other forces were used less successfully. But rarely is military force by itself used, no?
    In Vietnam, military force was used to attempt to establish a government friendly to the US. It didn't work. I'm not sure just why anyone thought it would work in Iraq, but, of course, it didn't.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    In Vietnam, military force was used to attempt to establish a government friendly to the US. It didn't work. I'm not sure just why anyone thought it would work in Iraq, but, of course, it didn't.
    ???

    It worked in South Korea, Germany, and Japan. It worked in the Philippines, Cuba, and Hawaii. Using your logic, "I'm not sure just why anyone thought it wouldn't work in Vietnam". Could it be maybe your logic is incredibly simplistic? Maybe there's a bit more to it than what you just talked about?
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    ???

    It worked in South Korea, Germany, and Japan. It worked in the Philippines, Cuba, and Hawaii. Using your logic, "I'm not sure just why anyone thought it wouldn't work in Vietnam". Could it be maybe your logic is incredibly simplistic? Maybe there's a bit more to it than what you just talked about?
    Military force worked half way in Korea, sure. In Cuba?? Last I heard, Castro was still in power there, but then, the Cubans had no tradition of anything but strong man rule even before Castro. Hawaii is a state. When have we ever invaded Hawaii? Germany and Japan were defeated utterly in the Second World War, not by the US alone, but by the allied forces. Moreover, it was not the Germans or the Japanese we defeated, but the Nazis and the Imperialists.

    Had the US gone all out to destroy Iraq, had we carried out the invasion the same way we did in Germany and Japan, we just might have won there, maybe. Had the people of Iraq actually greeted US forces as "liberators", as was predicted, perhaps then we would have succeeded. Had we had clear goals, and known when success was achieved, then we might have succeeded. In Germany, we knew exactly what the goal was, the Germans were more than happy to get rid of their Nazi overlords, and we were in the war to win.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Military force worked half way in Korea, sure. In Cuba?? Last I heard, Castro was still in power there, but then, the Cubans had no tradition of anything but strong man rule even before Castro. Hawaii is a state. When have we ever invaded Hawaii? Germany and Japan were defeated utterly in the Second World War, not by the US alone, but by the allied forces. Moreover, it was not the Germans or the Japanese we defeated, but the Nazis and the Imperialists.

    Had the US gone all out to destroy Iraq, had we carried out the invasion the same way we did in Germany and Japan, we just might have won there, maybe. Had the people of Iraq actually greeted US forces as "liberators", as was predicted, perhaps then we would have succeeded. Had we had clear goals, and known when success was achieved, then we might have succeeded. In Germany, we knew exactly what the goal was, the Germans were more than happy to get rid of their Nazi overlords, and we were in the war to win.
    Yes or no: are you trying to argue that military force wasn't a factor that assisted in any of making those places friendly to the US? Because in your post, you tried to imply that because military force wasn't a factor in a successful outcome in Vietnam (EDIT: or, to put it a different way, was a factor in an unsuccessful outcome there), we shouldn't have expected it to be part of a successful outcome in Iraq.

    An incredibly short-sighted and simplistic argument, as far as history goes. I feel like we just had this discussion regarding imperialism, too. It's like you think that some things just plain can't work. Why do you think that? Who taught you that? Just because something isn't "nice" doesn't mean it's not effective.
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 11-16-14 at 11:34 PM.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Yes or no: are you trying to argue that military force wasn't a factor that assisted in any of making those places friendly to the US? Because in your post, you tried to imply that because military force wasn't a factor in a successful outcome in Vietnam (EDIT: or, to put it a different way, was a factor in an unsuccessful outcome there), we shouldn't have expected it to be part of a successful outcome in Iraq.

    An incredibly short-sighted and simplistic argument, as far as history goes. I feel like we just had this discussion regarding imperialism, too. It's like you think that some things just plain can't work. Why do you think that? Who taught you that? Just because something isn't "nice" doesn't mean it's not effective.
    Cuba is not friendly to the US.
    Vietnam is friendly to the US despite our use of military force having failed, or perhaps because of it.

    Does military force ever work? Sure. It worked in WWII, when we declared war and went all out to defeat Nazism. It worked when the US was under attack by a foreign power and when the entire country was on a war footing with one goal, the defeat of evil. Little "war is peace" sorts of wars when only the military is at war, no war is declared, the citizenry is not behind it, and there are no clear objectives haven't been shown to be effective.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Cuba is not friendly to the US.
    I was talking about after the Spanish-American War.

    Does military force ever work? Sure.
    Then why are you trying to quibble here and not even doing it correctly? Sometimes military force can work. No one ever said it was supposed to solely accomplished through military force. So what are you trying to gain going down this rabbit hole?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I was talking about after the Spanish-American War.



    Then why are you trying to quibble here and not even doing it correctly? Sometimes military force can work. No one ever said it was supposed to solely accomplished through military force. So what are you trying to gain going down this rabbit hole?
    Read the rest of the post.

    War is peace was supposed to have been a warning, not foreign policy.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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