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Thread: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Possibly. Was there really a way to stop it from happening without going to war, and if not, why did Bush invade Iraq and not Iran?
    At the time of the invasion I considered that question, understood the reasoning and was not sure we moved the right way. That is water under the bridge now and we have to deal with the question of proliferation now. Proliferation under the conditions of increasing relative power in a dozen large countries is near sure to mean nuclear war in this century. That is the problem.

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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    At the time of the invasion I considered that question, understood the reasoning and was not sure we moved the right way. That is water under the bridge now and we have to deal with the question of proliferation now. Proliferation under the conditions of increasing relative power in a dozen large countries is near sure to mean nuclear war in this century. That is the problem.
    I'm not sure there's a way to stop proliferation. The secrets are out there, and there to be had if the price is right.

    The best thing is to maintain our arsenal as a deterrent and make it clear that we're not going to stand by if they are used. It's also possibly the world's worst kept "secret" that Israel has nuclear weapons, which is another strong deterrent for Iran.


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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Now they're asking for help, but when we pulled out they were asking for that. Staying at that point would have violated their sovereignty, and been against the wishes of the American people.
    It seems to me that having invaded in the first place violated Iraqi sovereignty.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It seems to me that having invaded in the first place violated Iraqi sovereignty.
    The justification for invasion is debatable. The issue of Saddam wasn't one that was going away anytime soon.

    However, there is no justification for violating their sovereignty after Saddam was gone, given the insistence that the sovereignty of the Iraqi people was important.


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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    The justification for invasion is debatable. The issue of Saddam wasn't one that was going away anytime soon.

    However, there is no justification for violating their sovereignty after Saddam was gone, given the insistence that the sovereignty of the Iraqi people was important.
    Why wasn't their sovereignty important before Saddam was gone? It was still an independent nation, was it not?
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    So it gets to be Obama's fault forever, but Bush's fault ended in 2009?
    What is this "it" you refer to? If you are referring to the withdrawal of troops from Iraq, despite the recommendations of the generals, the CIA and the previous administration, then of course Obama is responsible. He even took credit for it numerous times. There really is no debate here.

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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    What is this "it" you refer to? If you are referring to the withdrawal of troops from Iraq, despite the recommendations of the generals, the CIA and the previous administration, then of course Obama is responsible. He even took credit for it numerous times. There really is no debate here.
    My, how things change.

    Right wing news, August 2010:
    The one time Obama should be referencing George Bush, and, nary a mention

    President Barack Obama told disabled veterans in Atlanta on Monday that he was fulfilling a campaign promise by ending U.S. combat operations in Iraq “on schedule,” by Aug. 31.
    But the timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops in Iraq was decided during the Bush administration with the signing of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) by U.S. and Iraq officials on Nov. 16, 2008. The Iraqi parliament signed SOFA on Nov. 27, 2008.

    The agreement, which had been in negotiations since 2007, set a timetable calling for most U.S. troops to leave Iraqi towns and cities by June 30, 2009, with about 50,000 troops left in place until the final withdrawal of all U.S. military forces by Dec. 31, 2011.

    Details, schmetails, Obama has a narrative about Himself to tell
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    My, how things change.

    Right wing news, August 2010:
    Yes, the changes depend on who is seeking credit or discharging blame. Was Obama forced to withdraw the troops as per SOFA or did he end the war in Iraq as promised and, to his self-credit, bring the troops home?

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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, the changes depend on who is seeking credit or discharging blame. Was Obama forced to withdraw the troops as per SOFA or did he end the war in Iraq as promised and, to his self-credit, bring the troops home?
    He carried out the agreement made between the Bush Administration and Iraq. Now that the withdrawal is seen to have been a disaster, the Republicans are arguing that Obama owns the decision, while Democrats are saying it was all Bush. Back in 2010, it was the Democrats claiming credit for having ended the war, while Republicans were pointing out that it was Bush who negotiated the withdrawal.

    If it's a disaster, then blame the other party. If it's a positive thing, then claim the credit. That's how things are done in Washington.
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    Re: CNN: 1,500 more troops to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    He carried out the agreement made between the Bush Administration and Iraq. Now that the withdrawal is seen to have been a disaster, the Republicans are arguing that Obama owns the decision, while Democrats are saying it was all Bush. Back in 2010, it was the Democrats claiming credit for having ended the war, while Republicans were pointing out that it was Bush who negotiated the withdrawal.

    If it's a disaster, then blame the other party. If it's a positive thing, then claim the credit. That's how things are done in Washington.
    Yes, that is how things are done in Washington but we are not in Washington and should be able to recognize what really went on, if we want to participate in an honest debate.

    The US has something like 87 SOFA's around the world which are always coming up for renewal and renegotiation. The one in Iraq was no different. Obama and his supporters will blame SOFA for the withdrawal or take credit to 'end the war in Iraq'. They are obviously using this both ways, which politicians naturally do, but the electorate should see through this chicanery and certainly not defend it. By allowing this they support the dishonesty in government they are often railing against.

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