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Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

What was the wording they used? "Right to marriage". Can people get married and not be legally married? Yes. The wording they used only talks of the act of getting married.

They were using them directly in connection to laws that recognized marriage. You cannot get a legal marriage recognition without legally being recognized as married. You are wrong. It is not talking about the "act" of getting married, but the recognition of the state of that relationship, just as the state recognizes other marriages.
 
I highly doubt they can legitimately "punt" this issue now, since the decision made by this court and the others are so opposite.

Sutton uses the same stupid slippery slope fallacy that others try, which is far from brilliant, that striking down restrictions based on sex/gender means that the state couldn't legitimately restrict marriage in any way, which is wrong, and as a Federal Circuit Court judge he should know that.


But marriages are restricted from one state to the other, as Sutton points out, certain marriages are allowed in some states even to this day (See second cousins) and disallowed in others. To with, marriages where age of consent differ from state to state are, and are not recognized similarly. Furthermore, until just recently, if you wanted a no fault divorce in NY state, you couldn't get one, but could move to a state that recognized it and have one without an issue. The point is that states do have this right and responsibility to determine eligibility, and although they may differ from state to state, like any other "right", the states reserve to themselves, partiality.

Tim-
 
But marriages are restricted from one state to the other, as Sutton points out, certain marriages are allowed in some states even to this day (See second cousins) and disallowed in others. To with, marriages where age of consent differ from state to state are, and are not recognized similarly. Furthermore, until just recently, if you wanted a no fault divorce in NY state, you couldn't get one, but could move to a state that recognized it and have one without an issue. The point is that states do have this right and responsibility to determine eligibility, and although they may differ from state to state, like any other "right", the states reserve to themselves, partiality.

Tim-

And second cousins is likely to be the next fight we see that actually has a chance of winning due to a question of constitutionality of such restrictions. Age of consent laws may be challenged soon as well. The fact that states have different restrictions does not make all those restrictions automatically constitutional if they are challenged. Some likely wouldn't be, depending on the circumstances.

But those things mentioned can, in at least some cases, point out what could be legitimate state interests furthered by those restrictions, which is the point. The state interest must be furthered by the restriction. The state interest is not in why the other thing is allowed, as is the attempted claim. Take first cousins (since really, first cousins are the battle ground, not second cousins, to happen next). Some states prevent them from getting married only if they can have children together, which completely invalidates any argument about how marriage was meant to be about those with the potential for having children to ensure they are married. These couples are specifically only allowed to get married if they cannot have children with each other.
 
Opposite genders compliment each other in unequivocal material ways that benefit society, whereas homosexuals do not, at least not nearly in the same way.


Tim-


When examining equal treatment under the law, it is needful to compare similarly situated individuals (or in this case couples - since the "couple" is the basis of difference) and then to supply a legally valid reasoning as to WHY the individuals (or in this case couples) are treated differently.

So here is your shot, make your legal argument for what this "unequivocal marterial" way that law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a different-sex relationship and are allowed to Civilly Marry (in all States) and yet law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a same-sex relationship and are not allowed to Civilly Marry (in some States).


Remember: "Tradition" is not a legally valid reason for unequal treatment and "Religion" is not a legally valid reason. In addition, in ability to procreate is not a legally valid reason as it is not a standard that different-sex couples must be able to meet and there are actually places where different-sex couples must prove infertility before being allowed to Civilly Marry.



The floor is yours.



>>>>
 
And second cousins is likely to be the next fight we see that actually has a chance of winning due to a question of constitutionality of such restrictions. Age of consent laws may be challenged soon as well. The fact that states have different restrictions does not make all those restrictions automatically constitutional if they are challenged. Some likely wouldn't be, depending on the circumstances.

But those things mentioned can, in at least some cases, point out what could be legitimate state interests furthered by those restrictions, which is the point. The state interest must be furthered by the restriction. The state interest is not in why the other thing is allowed, as is the attempted claim. Take first cousins (since really, first cousins are the battle ground, not second cousins, to happen next). Some states prevent them from getting married only if they can have children together, which completely invalidates any argument about how marriage was meant to be about those with the potential for having children to ensure they are married. These couples are specifically only allowed to get married if they cannot have children with each other.

Um.. no that is not correct, Rogue. But neither here nor there, the point is that even if the 14th and due process applied (Which it does not) only rational basis is needed. Homosexuals do not fall under suspect class criterion and it isn't even close. Moreover, Sutton also points out why this would be a very slippery path for the USSC to follow regarding states rights. He mentions, among many examples, that requiring strict scrutiny on matters involving civil liberties would open a whirl wind of challenges to almost anything you can think of. I suspect that the USSC will once again say that there are no matters in need of federal relief, and kiss it goodbye. Homosexuals that want to marry can move to a state that allows it, or live with the will of the people through their elected representatives. if over time, gay marriage proves to have no impact on the states that allowed it, then other states will realize their mistake and adopt it, and that is what Sutton expressed in his decision. Courts need not desire to be skeptical of all unresolved moral, or otherwise civil questions better left to the states when the laboratories are still weighing the experiment.



Tim-
 
When examining equal treatment under the law, it is needful to compare similarly situated individuals (or in this case couples - since the "couple" is the basis of difference) and then to supply a legally valid reasoning as to WHY the individuals (or in this case couples) are treated differently.

So here is your shot, make your legal argument for what this "unequivocal marterial" way that law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a different-sex relationship and are allowed to Civilly Marry (in all States) and yet law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a same-sex relationship and are not allowed to Civilly Marry (in some States).


Remember: "Tradition" is not a legally valid reason for unequal treatment and "Religion" is not a legally valid reason. In addition, in ability to procreate is not a legally valid reason as it is not a standard that different-sex couples must be able to meet and there are actually places where different-sex couples must prove infertility before being allowed to Civilly Marry.



The floor is yours.



>>>>

Men and women compliment each other by way of their inherent sexual compatibility to advance the species and posterity of the nation. Homosexuals cannot inherently do this; moreover, there is a generally accepted civil norm that would intrinsically find well suited children being raised by both their biological mother and biological father. In addition, there are some viable valid reasons for wanting children to gather experiences from both their mother and their father, as opposed to two mothers and two fathers. The last two are of course speculative, and opinion, and do not apply to all parents but generally I think you'd find that the majority of clear thinking individuals would place these environments above that of any others. Now, are you going to proceed to list every single exception to the rule to bolster your argument, or can we just agree that, typically, and narrowly speaking, children are best served if they have laws that society allows for their upbringing to be the most desirable and advantageous? Not that they can't receive that in some rare circumstances, but we know that single parent households do a disservice to children, as do fatherless ones. Society, as Sutton points out is merely deciding collectively on the children's best interests, which has the effect of societies best interests in the long run.


Tim-
 
Um.. no that is not correct, Rogue. But neither here nor there, the point is that even if the 14th and due process applied (Which it does not) only rational basis is needed. Homosexuals do not fall under suspect class criterion and it isn't even close. Moreover, Sutton also points out why this would be a very slippery path for the USSC to follow regarding states rights. He mentions, among many examples, that requiring strict scrutiny on matters involving civil liberties would open a whirl wind of challenges to almost anything you can think of. I suspect that the USSC will once again say that there are no matters in need of federal relief, and kiss it goodbye. Homosexuals that want to marry can move to a state that allows it, or live with the will of the people through their elected representatives. if over time, gay marriage proves to have no impact on the states that allowed it, then other states will realize their mistake and adopt it, and that is what Sutton expressed in his decision. Courts need not desire to be skeptical of all unresolved moral, or otherwise civil questions better left to the states when the laboratories are still weighing the experiment.

Tim-

It is very much correct, and was even mentioned in one of the lower court decisions (of a different circuit). There are first cousins in some states, that according to state law, can only marry each other if they cannot have children with each other.

State Laws Regarding Marriages Between First Cousins

First cousin marriage is allowed in these states under the following circumstances:

Arizona- if both are 65 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

Illinois- if both are 50 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

Indiana- if both are at least 65.

Maine- if couple obtains a physician's certificate of genetic counseling.

Utah- if both are 65 or older, or if both are 55 or older and one is unable to reproduce.

Wisconsin- if the woman is 55 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

There is a very important matter in need of their attention, a difference in rulings by circuit courts on the same issue, on a matter of whether laws that are the same laws are constitutional or not. That requires the SCOTUS's attention, no matter if they like it or not.

There is no rational basis met though. There is no state interest furthered by not allowing same sex couples to marry.
 
Men and women compliment each other by way of their inherent sexual compatibility to advance the species and posterity of the nation. Homosexuals cannot inherently do this; moreover, there is a generally accepted civil norm that would intrinsically find well suited children being raised by both their biological mother and biological father. In addition, there are some viable valid reasons for wanting children to gather experiences from both their mother and their father, as opposed to two mothers and two fathers. The last two are of course speculative, and opinion, and do not apply to all parents but generally I think you'd find that the majority of clear thinking individuals would place these environments above that of any others. Now, are you going to proceed to list every single exception to the rule to bolster your argument, or can we just agree that, typically, and narrowly speaking, children are best served if they have laws that society allows for their upbringing to be the most desirable and advantageous? Not that they can't receive that in some rare circumstances, but we know that single parent households do a disservice to children, as do fatherless ones. Society, as Sutton points out is merely deciding collectively on the children's best interests, which has the effect of societies best interests in the long run.


Tim-


Not under marriage laws, which is what is at issue here, they don't.

Just because it is your personal belief that "men and women compliment each other", doesn't mean squat to marriage laws.

And even the decision here admitted that children are not in any way disadvantaged by being raised by same sex parents. You have no valid reasons supported facts or legitimate research for your opinion, only your opinion on this.
 
Not under marriage laws, which is what is at issue here, they don't.

Just because it is your personal belief that "men and women compliment each other", doesn't mean squat to marriage laws.

And even the decision here admitted that children are not in any way disadvantaged by being raised by same sex parents. You have no valid reasons supported facts or legitimate research for your opinion, only your opinion on this.

So, what do you see as the compelling reason for the state to have marriage laws? Or, to put it another way, what is the societal benefit of marriage?
 
When examining equal treatment under the law, it is needful to compare similarly situated individuals (or in this case couples - since the "couple" is the basis of difference) and then to supply a legally valid reasoning as to WHY the individuals (or in this case couples) are treated differently.

So here is your shot, make your legal argument for what this "unequivocal marterial" way that law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a different-sex relationship and are allowed to Civilly Marry (in all States) and yet law abiding, tax paying, US Citizen, infertile, non-related, consenting, adults who are in a same-sex relationship and are not allowed to Civilly Marry (in some States).


Remember: "Tradition" is not a legally valid reason for unequal treatment and "Religion" is not a legally valid reason. In addition, in ability to procreate is not a legally valid reason as it is not a standard that different-sex couples must be able to meet and there are actually places where different-sex couples must prove infertility before being allowed to Civilly Marry.



The floor is yours.



>>>>

Men and women compliment each other by way of their inherent sexual compatibility to advance the species and posterity of the nation. Homosexuals cannot inherently do this; moreover, there is a generally accepted civil norm that would intrinsically find well suited children being raised by both their biological mother and biological father.


You failed right form the get-go. If procreation is not a requirement that different-sex couples are held to (and in some places in the US different-sex couples must prove they are INFERTILE to be able to marry), then under equal treatment doctrine it isn't a principle that can be applied to same-sex couples.



Care to try again?


>>>>
 
I love the fear equal rights generates and all the false claims and fallacies "like marriage isnt a right" that come with that fear.

facts and court cases prove marriage to be a right if ANYBODY can bring ONE fact to the table proving different please do so now, we would all love to read this fact that says that SCUTOS and all the other court cases are wrong and we should go with you opinion lol

fact remains marriage is a right, but if anybody disagrees please bring your proof forward now


field-cricket.jpg
 
This is why the 'government should get out marriage' nonsense needs to stop. That. Is. Not. Going. To Happen. Constitutional or unconstitutional, there isn't a single federal/state government that would even consider doing away with civil marriage. Not only would the political ramifications leave a giant black hole in civil law (as well a child adoption, custody and property laws) it would also mean that the government isn't in the business of recognizing and enforcing social contracts between individuals. Do you people think of this before you try and steer the conversation away from what is actually in question here? Again, your imaginary world where marriage can be done away with, isn't real.

correct and theres no way to do it without giving less rights and making the whole system more complected and less legally sound
its asinine to even suggest

and the most stupid part of it is, what ever replaces it would STILL need government to protect it/ enforce it making the whole reasons moot
 
So how do people manage all of that stuff when they aren't married? I'm pretty sure people do fine without it.

Try making a dependency claim from a SO without being married. Try adopting a kid as a legally single person. Again, you're not even looking at this from a legal perspective. Marriage, gay marriage, straight marriage regulate the laws which go into other matters. Doing away with it means rewriting a myriad of other laws and that is what makes doing away with it unrealistic.
 
So, what do you see as the compelling reason for the state to have marriage laws? Or, to put it another way, what is the societal benefit of marriage?

They recognize legal relationships of any kind. Who issues birth certificates? Who do you turn to in the case of a contractual dispute? A family dispute when it comes to who gets what upon a death? A dispute over custody?
 
Um.. no that is not correct, Rogue. But neither here nor there, the point is that even if the 14th and due process applied (Which it does not) only rational basis is needed. Homosexuals do not fall under suspect class criterion and it isn't even close. Moreover, Sutton also points out why this would be a very slippery path for the USSC to follow regarding states rights. He mentions, among many examples, that requiring strict scrutiny on matters involving civil liberties would open a whirl wind of challenges to almost anything you can think of. I suspect that the USSC will once again say that there are no matters in need of federal relief, and kiss it goodbye. Homosexuals that want to marry can move to a state that allows it, or live with the will of the people through their elected representatives. if over time, gay marriage proves to have no impact on the states that allowed it, then other states will realize their mistake and adopt it, and that is what Sutton expressed in his decision. Courts need not desire to be skeptical of all unresolved moral, or otherwise civil questions better left to the states when the laboratories are still weighing the experiment.

You don't need strict scrutiny to overturn bans on gay marriage, they don't even meet the rational basis test. There are no arguments against gay marriage beyond irrational prejudice and religious objection. In the dozens on cases on the issue, nobody has managed to make a halfway credible argument on the matter.

The slippery slope argument fails because other bans on marriage do meet the rational basis test. The rules for joint income taxes don't work with polyarmory, as it breaks the basic concept of marriage in that all parties are not on the same page . Do 3 people in a polygamous relationship file a single joint tax form with 3 people on it or two tax forms with the income of the middle person split in half? I don't think its immoral or against my religion for a poly group to get married, it simply doesn't work under the law and their relationship needs a new legal framework. That is rational basis and something that anti ssm arguments are fundamentally lacking.
 
That equal protection does not mean that if state A allows (or does not tax) X, then state B must also do so as well anymore than it means that if state B disallows (or taxes) Y then state A must do as well. There is little sense in having states if the wishes of a federal judge trump their power to pass laws that differ from one another. Laws concerning marriage, voting, guns and recreational drugs differ greatly among the several states yet there is but one constitution defining the rights of the people and powers of the federal gov't.

That is not how people are applying equal protection to same-sex marriage.

More accurately: a state can make up its own marriage laws, but those laws must be in compliance with equal protection. A state could choose to not recognize any form of marriage, this would not violate equal protection. But if a state is going to recognize marriage between a man and a woman, they have to also recognize a marriage between a man and a man unless they can identify a sufficiently powerful reason for making that distinction. (exactly how powerful a reason depends on the level of scrutiny being applied, but same-sex marriage bans don't meet any of these standards so that is moot)
 
You failed right form the get-go. If procreation is not a requirement that different-sex couples are held to (and in some places in the US different-sex couples must prove they are INFERTILE to be able to marry), then under equal treatment doctrine it isn't a principle that can be applied to same-sex couples.



Care to try again?


>>>>


But you failed in your question because certain restrictions do apply, and they vary from state to state, which is after all what Sutton was arguing in his opinion. Procreation isn't required, BUT it is preferred by the state and so to is the recognition of what two genders best compliment each other to attain that goal.

If you believe procreation although not specifically delineated is not a benefit to society and the environment society deems best suited for that, then you're being obtuse.

Tim-
 
But you failed in your question because certain restrictions do apply, and they vary from state to state, which is after all what Sutton was arguing in his opinion. Procreation isn't required, BUT it is preferred by the state and so to is the recognition of what two genders best compliment each other to attain that goal.

If you believe procreation although not specifically delineated is not a benefit to society and the environment society deems best suited for that, then you're being obtuse.

Tim-

The problem is that banning same-sex marriage in no way furthers this interest. Same-sex marriage bans do not result in more babies, or better homes for the raising of children. In fact, same-sex marriage bans harm this interest. A married homosexual couple is a more stable household for the raising of children than an unmarried homosexual couple. (adoption, child through previous marriage, surrogacy, etc)

This is why such reasoning does not pass constitutional challenge. It's not a real reason to ban same-sex marriage. All of the identified reasons either
1) aren't actually state interest, (protecting the "definition" of marriage)
2) are interests not actually furthered by banning same-sex marriage, (procreation)
3) are straight-up false. (the gays are just trying to recruit!)
 
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They recognize legal relationships of any kind. Who issues birth certificates? Who do you turn to in the case of a contractual dispute? A family dispute when it comes to who gets what upon a death? A dispute over custody?

That isn't answering the question. There are real reasons for wills, and powers of attorney and birth certificates, but what is the state's purpose in acknowledging a marriage?
 
Try making a dependency claim from a SO without being married. Try adopting a kid as a legally single person. Again, you're not even looking at this from a legal perspective. Marriage, gay marriage, straight marriage regulate the laws which go into other matters. Doing away with it means rewriting a myriad of other laws and that is what makes doing away with it unrealistic.

Well, for one thing, single people should be able to adopt children regardless of what is done towards marriage. As for all the other stuff, again, either it is possible under current law like adding someone to a deed, or it is easily workable in law outside of government recognized marriage.
 
That is not how people are applying equal protection to same-sex marriage.

More accurately: a state can make up its own marriage laws, but those laws must be in compliance with equal protection. A state could choose to not recognize any form of marriage, this would not violate equal protection. But if a state is going to recognize marriage between a man and a woman, they have to also recognize a marriage between a man and a man unless they can identify a sufficiently powerful reason for making that distinction. (exactly how powerful a reason depends on the level of scrutiny being applied, but same-sex marriage bans don't meet any of these standards so that is moot)

Hmm... like an all male draft for a unisex military? The idea that any (every?) law must treat all folks equally is great on paper but then why the need for the 15th and 19th amendment if the 14th "really" covers that ground?
 
But you failed in your question because certain restrictions do apply, and they vary from state to state, which is after all what Sutton was arguing in his opinion. Procreation isn't required, BUT it is preferred by the state and so to is the recognition of what two genders best compliment each other to attain that goal.


So you said there were unequivocal differences and you can't name any from a legal perspective. Don't worry, I've been asking that same question for about a decade and not once has anyone been able to provide a sound legal reasoning as to why homosexuals should be discriminated against. Those that even try fall back on religion, tradition, or procreation as you did.


If you believe procreation although not specifically delineated is not a benefit to society and the environment society deems best suited for that, then you're being obtuse.

Tim-


Don't try to put words in my mouth okay? No where did I say that procreation was not a benefit to society.

Allowing gays to Civilly Marry doesn't mean that we as straights are going to stop getting married and/or having kids - if you believe that you're being obtuse.

On the other hand there are a large number of same-sex households (about 25% of them) are raising children (84% of those raising children biologically related to an adult in the household) and that those households deserve the same stability factors that Civil Marriage extends.


https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=2010 census homosexual parents

>>>>
 
That isn't answering the question. There are real reasons for wills, and powers of attorney and birth certificates, but what is the state's purpose in acknowledging a marriage?

Actually there are only certain legal documents that grant kinship recognition, and those are all controlled in some way by the government.
 
The problem is that banning same-sex marriage in no way furthers this interest. Same-sex marriage bans do not result in more babies, or better homes for the raising of children. In fact, same-sex marriage bans harm this interest. A married homosexual couple is a more stable household for the raising of children than an unmarried homosexual couple. (adoption, child through previous marriage, surrogacy, etc)

This is why such reasoning does not pass constitutional challenge. It's not a real reason to ban same-sex marriage. All of the identified reasons either
1) aren't actually state interest, (protecting the "definition" of marriage)
2) are interests not actually furthered by banning same-sex marriage, (procreation)
3) are straight-up false. (the gays are just trying to recruit!)


Sutton
Rational basis review.
Doctrine leads to the same place as history. A first requirement of any law, whether under the Due Process or Equal Protection Clause, is that it rationally advance a legitimate government policy.
Vance v. Bradley
, 440 U.S. 93, 97 (1979). Two words (“judicial restraint,”
FCC v. Beach Commc’ns, Inc.
, 508 U.S. 307, 314 (1993)) and one principle (trust in the people that “even improvident decisions will eventually be rectified by the democratic process,”
Vance
, 440 U.S. at 97) tell us all we need to know about the light touch judges should use in reviewing laws under this standard. So long as judges can conceive of some “plausible” reason for the law— any
plausible reason, even one that did not motivate the legislators who enacted it—the law must stand, no matter how unfair, unjust, or unwise the judges may consider it as citizens.
Nordlinger v. Hahn

, 505 U.S. 1, 11, 17–18 (1992). A dose of humility makes us hesitant to condemn as unconstitutionally irrational a view of marriage shared not long ago by every society in the world, shared by most, if not all, of our ancestors, and shared still today by a significant number of the States. Hesitant, yes; but still a rational basis, some rational basis, must exist for the definition. What is it? Two at a minimum suffice to meet this low bar. One starts from the premise that governments got into the business of defining marriage, and remain in the business of defining marriage, not to regulate love but to regulate sex, most especially the intended and unintended effects of male-female intercourse. Imagine a society without marriage. It does not take long to envision problems that might result from an absence of rules about how to handle the natural effects of male-female intercourse: children. May men and women follow their procreative urges wherever they take them? Who is responsible for the children that result? How many mates may an individual have? How does one decide which set of mates is responsible for which set of children? That we rarely think about these questions nowadays shows only how far we have come and how relatively stable our society is, not that States have no explanation for creating such rules in the first place. Once one accepts a need to establish such ground rules, and most especially a need to create stable family units for the planned and unplanned creation of children, one can well appreciate why the citizenry would think that a reasonable first concern of any society is the need to regulate male-female relationships and the unique procreative possibilities of them. One way

DeBoer v. Snyder
Page 20 to pursue this objective is to encourage couples to enter lasting relationships through subsidies and other benefits and to discourage them from ending such relationships through these and other means. People may not need the government’s encouragement to have sex. And they may not need the government’s encouragement to propagate the species. But they may well need the government’s encouragement to create and maintain stable relationships within which children may flourish. It is not society’s laws or for that matter any one religion’s laws, but nature’s laws (that men and women complement each other biologically), that created the policy imperative. And governments typically are not second-guessed under the Constitution for prioritizing how they tackle such issues.
Dandridge v. Williams
, 397 U.S. 471, 486–87 (1970). No doubt, that is not the only way people view marriage today. Over time, marriage has come to serve another value—to solemnize relationships characterized by love, affection, and commitment. Gay couples, no less than straight couples, are capable of sharing such relationships. And gay couples, no less than straight couples, are capable of raising children and providing stable families for them. The quality of such relationships, and the capacity to raise children within them, turns not on sexual orientation but on individual choices and individual commitment. All of this supports the policy argument made by many that marriage laws should be extended to gay couples, just as nineteen States have done through their own sovereign powers. Yet it does not show that the States, circa 2014, suddenly must look at this policy issue in just one way on pain of violating the Constitution. The signature feature of rational basis

review is that governments will not be placed in the dock for doing too much or for doing too little in addressing a policy question.

I would refer you to Sutton title on Rational Basis Review. I posted a short excerpt above.


Tim-
 
Well, for one thing, single people should be able to adopt children regardless of what is done towards marriage. As for all the other stuff, again, either it is possible under current law like adding someone to a deed, or it is easily workable in law outside of government recognized marriage.

Not as easily workable as simply having marriage.
 
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