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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. This was simply the mentality back then. That a woman that was unwilling to do her housework must be mentally disabled, the same mentality that said that someone who wanted to be in relationships with people of the same sex must be mentally screwed up. So much was seen as a mental problem back then that was simply a person who deviated from social norms.
    Please site the case and specifics.
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    That alone may have shifted with this last election.
    No, it didn't. Many republicans, especially young republicans support same sex marriage. It may not yet be a majority, but it's working it's way there. This election, same sex marriage itself isn't a major issue because it's in the courts hands now. There is nothing else legislatures can legitimately do to prevent it short of a constitutional amendment, which there isn't support for.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Does the number of people desiring to participate really influence a decision on individual liberty? I mean, not many people like to dress up and go to a Clown Convention but nobody would consider that to be an argument against making Clown Conventions legal.
    Same thing with gay pride parades and bath house worker conventions. If they wanted a state sanction for their little get togethers, however, that would be a different matter. The fact that a state doesn't provide a state sanction for homosexual partnerships doesn't make them illegal. It just means there is no state stamp of approval as "marriage".
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not really.
    Yes really. They were dealing with the legal recognition of marriage.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    That started from the premise that there were lots of mentally ill released that then ended up in prison because they shouldn't have been released to begin with but were due to a philosophy of "they aren't mentally ill" being common. This argument hasn't been supported at all. How do you know how much housework she was or wasn't doing? Being depressed or even bipolar does not require hospitalization for most people.
    From the PBS documentary series, "Frontline":

    Most of those who were deinstitutionalized from the nation's public psychiatric hospitals were severely mentally ill. Between 50 and 60 percent of them were diagnosed with schizophrenia. Another 10 to 15 percent were diagnosed with manic-depressive illness and severe depression. An additional 10 to 15 percent were diagnosed with organic brain diseases -- epilepsy, strokes, Alzheimer's disease, and brain damage secondary to trauma. The remaining individuals residing in public psychiatric hospitals had conditions such as mental retardation with psychosis, autism and other psychiatric disorders of childhood, and alcoholism and drug addiction with concurrent brain damage. The fact that most deinstitutionalized people suffer from various forms of brain dysfunction was not as well understood when the policy of deinstitutionalization got under way.

    Thus deinstitutionalization has helped create the mental illness crisis by discharging people from public psychiatric hospitals without ensuring that they received the medication and rehabilitation services necessary for them to live successfully in the community. Deinstitutionalization further exacerbated the situation because, once the public psychiatric beds had been closed, they were not available for people who later became mentally ill, and this situation continues up to the present. Consequently, approximately 2.2 million severely mentally ill people do not receive any psychiatric treatment.

    ...

    For a substantial minority, however, deinstitutionalization has been a psychiatric Titanic. Their lives are virtually devoid of "dignity" or "integrity of body, mind, and spirit." "Self-determination" often means merely that the person has a choice of soup kitchens. The "least restrictive setting" frequently turns out to be a cardboard box, a jail cell, or a terror-filled existence plagued by both real and imaginary enemies.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It just means there is no state stamp of approval as "marriage".
    No. It goes much deeper. Even Judge Sutton admitted in the Majority opinion that there are real harms to existing families by choosing to deny marriage to same-sex couples.

    The traditional definition of marriage denies gay couples the opportunity to publicly solemnize, to say nothing of subsidize, their relationships under state law. In addition to depriving them of this status, it deprives them of benefits that range from the profound (the right to visit someone in a hospital as a spouse or parent) to the mundane (the right to file joint tax returns)," Sutton wrote.

    "These harms affect not only gay couples but also their children. Do the benefits of standing by the traditional definition of marriage make up for these costs?
    You cannot belittle marriage as just being a state stamp of approval.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yes really. They were dealing with the legal recognition of marriage.
    The question put before the court was not whether the state must recognize the marriage as a civil marriage, it was whether the state had a right to ban their marriage. The Lovings were sentenced to a year in jail for a marriage that had no legal significance in the state.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    The question put before the court was not whether the state must recognize the marriage as a civil marriage, it was whether the state had a right to ban their marriage. The Lovings were sentenced to a year in jail for a marriage that had no legal significance in the state.
    It seems that even the judges in this case could not agree what question they were addressing and for us what question they were or should have addressed will depend on how we feel about the ruling.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yet her husband's chief complaint was "she isn't doing housework", not she isn't able to take care of herself. And she wasn't the only one.

    And many of those people did not belong in mental institutions, but rather simply being taken care of by a mental health professional, getting the help they needed outside of a mental facility is possible, and much healthier for them.
    Probably so, but there are lots of variables at play when they are not. Within the SSI system we have replaced access to mental health with Payees many of whom exploit the mentally ill for a big cut of their pay check without ensuring that the person has and continues to take their medication properly. It a something I have seen a lot on my area. Someone will charge the mentally ill like 90% of their check for room and board and expect them to otherwise provide for themselves for less than $100 a month. I am sure a lot of people do right by the mentally ill in that situation, but a lot do not and those mentally ill people do often end up in petty troubles like shoplifting, loitering, drug and panhandling type crimes when they fall off their meds or need money for other things. When someone is broke and feels good on their meds, they are more likely going to leave their meds even at very low out of pocket costs so they can buy them a soda a day and stuff like that we take for granted.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    No. It goes much deeper. Even Judge Sutton admitted in the Majority opinion that there are real harms to existing families by choosing to deny marriage to same-sex couples.



    You cannot belittle marriage as just being a state stamp of approval.
    It's a good question whether these so-called "harms" are overshadowed by the good that society receives from maintaining traditional marriage. I think the clear answer is "yes", despite his fears about the "harms" that affect the children of homosexual couples since homosexual unions don't produce children.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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