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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #441
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    You left off:
    So she wasn't committed for refusing to do housework, that was just the way the husband described the symptoms of what was a condition that made her unable to care for herself or perform everyday tasks.

    It's probable that there were more egregious cases a century ago, but I was referring to the 1960's, which was when a lot of the deinstitutionalization occurred.
    Yet her husband's chief complaint was "she isn't doing housework", not she isn't able to take care of herself. And she wasn't the only one.

    And many of those people did not belong in mental institutions, but rather simply being taken care of by a mental health professional, getting the help they needed outside of a mental facility is possible, and much healthier for them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #442
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Many people get a say in it, but the main say comes from the Constitution, the default of which is freedom for all. It should only be limited to further a state interest. That is what decides, and that is upheld by those people in black robes (in case you weren't aware, there are 9 of them), but they are kept in check by other things, such as the necessary process to get to them (which is many more people in black robes). The voters and the legislative bodies have a say as well.

    Our rights are determined by what we are willing to fight for, especially in a case like this where people are trying to prevent others from doing something just because people feel they should be able to.
    So we need to decide if something is good or bad for the overall well being of society.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  3. #443
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    So we need to decide if something is good or bad for the overall well being of society.
    No. We decide what causes measurable harm to society and/or individuals, and that can be the basis for a restriction. But you need to show that it actually causes measurable harm (not simply a bunch of people believing it will) in order for it to be constitutional. The exception to this is if you can get a supermajority support in order to put it into the Constitution as an Amendment. The Constitution is there to limit the government, including state governments, not the people. It only limits the people when a supermajority is present to make an Amendment to do so (such as Prohibition, but look how well that went).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #444
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. We decide what causes measurable harm to society and/or individuals, and that can be the basis for a restriction. But you need to show that it actually causes measurable harm (not simply a bunch of people believing it will) in order for it to be constitutional. The exception to this is if you can get a supermajority support in order to put it into the Constitution as an Amendment. The Constitution is there to limit the government, including state governments, not the people. It only limits the people when a supermajority is present to make an Amendment to do so (such as Prohibition, but look how well that went).

    A super majority as in....

    Currently 37 states have passed laws which define marriage as limited to a union between one man and one woman: 33 state legislatures have passed statutes to that effect, and 4 states (Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska and Nevada) have, by popular vote, passed Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMAs) as constitutional amendments
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

  5. #445
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    Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    A super majority as in....

    Currently 37 states have passed laws which define marriage as limited to a union between one man and one woman: 33 state legislatures have passed statutes to that effect, and 4 states (Alaska, Hawaii, Nebraska and Nevada) have, by popular vote, passed Defense of Marriage Acts (DOMAs) as constitutional amendments
    Nope. That is not a supermajority since despite being able to do that very few passed in their states with a "supermajority", and even fewer, if any, could currently pass with a supermajority vote. Plus, you know good and well I was referring to amending the Constitution, something that failed twice while Bush was President.

    You don't seriously believe that all or really even most of those states would pass those same laws now do you?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #446
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yet her husband's chief complaint was "she isn't doing housework", not she isn't able to take care of herself. And she wasn't the only one.
    We've gone from "there were lots of people who believed (wrongly) that something like a woman who didn't want to do housework or who wanted to wear pants had a mental illness, something that wasn't true" to a single case over the course of one mental health professional's career where the chief complaint was that the husband's chief complaint was that she wasn't doing her housework - despite that being a symptom of a real, underlying condition that made it impossible for this woman to care for herself or perform everyday tasks (like housework). Not a very compelling argument.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Nope. That is not a supermajority since despite being able to do that very few passed in their states with a "supermajority", and even fewer, if any, could currently pass with a supermajority vote. Plus, you know good and well I was referring to amending the Constitution, something that failed twice while Bush was President.

    You don't seriously believe that all or really even most of those states would pass those same laws now do you?
    Yeah I do. Those polls are not accurate.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    We've gone from "there were lots of people who believed (wrongly) that something like a woman who didn't want to do housework or who wanted to wear pants had a mental illness, something that wasn't true" to a single case over the course of one mental health professional's career where the chief complaint was that the husband's chief complaint was that she wasn't doing her housework - despite that being a symptom of a real, underlying condition that made it impossible for this woman to care for herself or perform everyday tasks (like housework). Not a very compelling argument.
    That started from the premise that there were lots of mentally ill released that then ended up in prison because they shouldn't have been released to begin with but were due to a philosophy of "they aren't mentally ill" being common. This argument hasn't been supported at all. How do you know how much housework she was or wasn't doing? Being depressed or even bipolar does not require hospitalization for most people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #449
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    Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Yeah I do. Those polls are not accurate.
    You are kidding yourself. NCs ban didn't get a supermajority vote during a republican primary. The majority of those voting at the time were republicans. Four votes before that went to same sex marriage.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 11-10-14 at 10:24 AM.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #450
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are kidding yourself. NCs ban didn't get a supermajority vote during a republican convention. The majority of those voting at the time were republicans. Four votes before that went to same sex marriage.
    That alone may have shifted with this last election.

    In Texas, Voters passed the 2005 amendment banning gay marriage by better than 3-to-1.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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