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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #401
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The reverse is equally true; just because something is "natural" does not mean that it should be culturally accepted by a society. Personally, I favor allowing SSM as a state sanctioned relationship option (as well as some others), but I have no reason to get more than my one vote on the matter. Once we start down the path to what compelling state interest supports any "standard" then we are in for some serious time wasting.
    I absolutely agree - which is why I strongly oppose government being in the marriage business and government incentives, benefits, tax allowances, related to government being in the marriage business. If society truly was fair and equitable, all individuals would be treated equally, regardless of their personal relationships/commitments.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    So only a marriage license issued by government can determine the rights and responsibilities of two parties in a contract?

    Those who enter into business and employment contracts should be clamouring for government to sanction their agreements with a magical piece of government paper.
    Only a marriage being recognized by the government, some relationship type being recognized by the government can work with the current way our laws operate. The government deals with family recognition, ensuring that such relationships are given certain special protections, and this goes for any family relationship that is legally recognized.

    Marriage is not simply a contract. It is a recognition of legal kinship, as I've said many times, which is akin to a birth certificate, and no one so far as shown any contract that could take the place of marriage that would provide all the same benefits, still be recognized by the government, and be as cheap if not cheaper than marriage when it comes to entering into it (if it is dissolved, it would be pretty much the same costs at least whether it is a marriage or just private contracts, which can be fought over).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Only a marriage being recognized by the government, some relationship type being recognized by the government can work with the current way our laws operate. The government deals with family recognition, ensuring that such relationships are given certain special protections, and this goes for any family relationship that is legally recognized.

    Marriage is not simply a contract. It is a recognition of legal kinship, as I've said many times, which is akin to a birth certificate, and no one so far as shown any contract that could take the place of marriage that would provide all the same benefits, still be recognized by the government, and be as cheap if not cheaper than marriage when it comes to entering into it (if it is dissolved, it would be pretty much the same costs at least whether it is a marriage or just private contracts, which can be fought over).
    So, in other words, the government has to be in the marriage business because government has so intruded in marriage and the marriage business that sane adults are apparently incapable of functioning without the government's magical piece of paper. Perhaps that's why marriage is in such trouble these days and far less respected than it once was.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I can't speak definitively, but I think it would be very abnormal, to use a term you like, for homosexuals to be "indoctrinating kids" into homosexuality. That would defy the logic of most homosexuals who believe they are genetically or naturally homosexual and not indoctrinated or brainwashed into same sex behaviour. Just as uniquely, there's a whole subclass of female who believes they can turn gay men straight - if a man is gay, he just hasn't met a sufficiently sexually talented female.
    There are talking points and then there is reality. It is important not to confuse the two. It is important to homosexuals to try to argue that homosexuality is absolutely not a choice and yet it clearly CAN be and often HAS been a choice for a lot of people; people that actually have admitted that they became homosexual by choice.

    I remember when there was a huge debate about how crossbows in archery season weren't any different than regular archery or "vertical bows" as the crossbow advocates started calling them. It was a lie but it was a lie with a purpose. The truth wouldn't have suited the agenda because admitting that crossbows are radically different and shoot a lot more like a gun than a bow and make it MUCH easier to take a deer than hunting with traditional equipment does..... well, it just wouldn't help them convince legislators to change the law to allow them, so you couldn't drag the truth out of them with a team of mules.

    Now it's homosexual marriage and, again, the people with the agenda are careful about their talking points and words. And they're doing a bangup sales job because a lot of people are buying it. I suppose that's just working the system and I don't see a problem with people using the system to progress their agenda. It's how the world works. Do your best sales pitch and see who buys it. If enough buy it, we all get stuck with it. My message is "caveat emptor". I'm beginning to think that it's too late, though.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. I'm arguing that people are different, and at this current time, people are more trusting of proof that someone is committed, particularly in a way that helps to protect both of their interests, as legal marriage does.
    Or as domestic partnerships would. For the purpose of legal protection and trust that you are arguing, there's no difference.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    If you can't refute it, trivialize it.

    Excellent.
    Well you know one of the definitions of homophobia: the fear you'll be treated as you/other dudes treat women

    Not saying it was ok for them to do that, but come on, not every homosexual will be into you or treat you that way.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I absolutely agree - which is why I strongly oppose government being in the marriage business and government incentives, benefits, tax allowances, related to government being in the marriage business. If society truly was fair and equitable, all individuals would be treated equally, regardless of their personal relationships/commitments.
    Sadly, that ship has sailed long ago. Gov't is in the control business as well as in the selling favors business. Simple laws that treat all equally minimize that control while complex laws allow for carefully targeted exceptions to be added, changed or deleted for the right amount of campaign cash.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Or as domestic partnerships would. For the purpose of legal protection and trust that you are arguing, there's no difference.
    If there is no difference between domestic partnership or marriage, then there is absolutely no reason to change it since those arguing against using the term "marriage" do not own the meaning of that word so then that is a waste of money and time to change it for any group or all just to appease some people.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #409
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    There are talking points and then there is reality. It is important not to confuse the two. It is important to homosexuals to try to argue that homosexuality is absolutely not a choice and yet it clearly CAN be and often HAS been a choice for a lot of people; people that actually have admitted that they became homosexual by choice.

    I remember when there was a huge debate about how crossbows in archery season weren't any different than regular archery or "vertical bows" as the crossbow advocates started calling them. It was a lie but it was a lie with a purpose. The truth wouldn't have suited the agenda because admitting that crossbows are radically different and shoot a lot more like a gun than a bow and make it MUCH easier to take a deer than hunting with traditional equipment does..... well, it just wouldn't help them convince legislators to change the law to allow them, so you couldn't drag the truth out of them with a team of mules.

    Now it's homosexual marriage and, again, the people with the agenda are careful about their talking points and words. And they're doing a bangup sales job because a lot of people are buying it. I suppose that's just working the system and I don't see a problem with people using the system to progress their agenda. It's how the world works. Do your best sales pitch and see who buys it. If enough buy it, we all get stuck with it. My message is "caveat emptor". I'm beginning to think that it's too late, though.
    I'm from the conservative school of "keep the government out of my wallet and out of my bedroom". In other words, government should be fiscally restrained and socially uninvolved. As a result, if government had no involvement in marriage, as per this thread's topic, there'd be no issue about gay marriage because it wouldn't have any benefit or status, vis-a-vis government operations.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #410
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    The fact that some or even many need no encouragement isn't proof that recruitment isn't an important part of homosexual culture. But here's a homosexual who broke the code of silence on the subject.

    Can We Please Just Start Admitting That We Do Actually Want To Indoctrinate Kids? / Queerty
    What that article describes and you've been saying are not the same. Teaching kids that homosexuality *exists*, as the TN bill sought to outlaw, is NOT identical to "recruiting" kids to *be* homosexual, as you've been alleging.

    A huge reason to educate on this is it's likely one or more of their classmates are gay, so the goal is to reduce bullying and a sense of alienation for those who are gay.

    Whereas it seems many on the right wing are kosher with bullying and treating the gay kids like freaks. What kind of message does it send to make a subject taboo? Oh right, that it's so perverse even to discuss the topic will put everyone at risk. But what are we doing right now? Earnest discussion is a good thing!

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