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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #341
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    This is where the analogy breaks down, because driving is an action and marriage is a relationship between individuals. Yes, "restricting marriage to only heterosexuals would not fly" - but mostly for reasons that aren't relevant to the gay marriage issue. Such a law would be irrational because it would allow anyone to marry anyone else so long as one of them didn't admit/claim to be gay. Tired of being married? Just say "You know what, honey? I think I might be gay!" and POOF! Your marriage is gone.
    The action in marriage is the establishment of the relationship, the legal kinship. You compared the two, and yes analogy did fail, but not because of your stated difference.

    As for the other part, no a marriage would not just be annulled or voided with a simple declaration of sexuality or questioning it.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #342
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    Because one is an 'action' and one is a 'relationship' is irrelevant... and incorrect. Marriage is both a action and a state of relation.

    To marry is not the same as being married.
    You are confused. Marriage is a noun. It is not an action. You get it right in the last sentence.

  3. #343
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    It's not about marriage benefiting the "state" the government, the real question is does Civil Marriage benefit society - the people that participate in marriage.

    1. Lower suicide rate when comparing single persons and married persons.
    2. Married people are typically healthier.
    3. Married people tend to live longer.
    4. Married people tend to have better sex lives.
    5. Married people tend to be happier then unmarried people.
    6. Married people tend to earn more. (i.e. they are more financially stable)
    7. Married people tend to have lower rates of fatal accidents.
    8. Married people tend to have lower rates of chronic illnesses.
    9. Married people tend to have lower rates of alcoholism.
    10. Married people tend to have lower rates of depression.


    Society benefits when, in general, members of the population are happier, healthier, and more finacially stable.


    Marriage as a Public Issue, Princeton University


    >>>>
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The interesting thing is that many of these things do not have anything to do with having children, only being married. In fact, some of those things are most true when it comes to married couples without children.

    Can parenthood make us miserable? How couples with children are LESS happy than those without (but only if they're married and earn over $50,000) | Daily Mail Online
    The interesting thing is that these things have to do with having a partner; not a marriage license. There are a LOT of people living together that aren't married - and they get the same benefits. Marriage doesn't bring these benefits. Being a stable person capable of having a working relationship with someone else does.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  4. #344
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    The Supreme court could have used the 14th amendment as judicial reasoning for former slaves and women's vote... The American people chose to codify those rights more succinctly.
    I suppose so... If they wanted to make a mockery of the law. When the 14th amendment was being debated, there was a strong campaign to use language that would have advanced suffrage, but it never would have passed. There was strong support for the rights of former (male) slaves... women, not so much. The language in Section 2 was devised to prevent the 14th from being used to give women the right to vote.

  5. #345
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Hmm that sounds like a conspiracy.
    Not a conspiracy, just government tax and other policy that has passed its need and hasn't yet been adjusted for the current societal situation. And perhaps politicians are too afraid to do anything about it. But considering that the ever increasing number of people these days who choose not to marry, it's just a matter of time before they collectively have their voices heard and benefits related to a government issued piece of paper will be eliminated.
    Last edited by CanadaJohn; 11-09-14 at 12:24 PM.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The action in marriage is the establishment of the relationship, the legal kinship. You compared the two, and yes analogy did fail, but not because of your stated difference.
    No, the comparison I made was between the state of driving on public roads and the state of being married.

    As for the other part, no a marriage would not just be annulled or voided with a simple declaration of sexuality or questioning it.
    That's kind of a silly thing to say about a made up hypothetical, but it's worth pointing out that if the law in this hypothetical worked the same as the law in Virginia pre-Loving, you would be dead wrong.

  7. #347
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    The interesting thing is that these things have to do with having a partner; not a marriage license. There are a LOT of people living together that aren't married - and they get the same benefits. Marriage doesn't bring these benefits. Being a stable person capable of having a working relationship with someone else does.
    And just to piggyback on that, isn't it funny that courts are quite capable of establishing rights related to common-law relationships, the financial product of those relationships, and the offspring of those relationships and yet those who support government sanction/involvement in marriage claim that without the government piece of paper, people would have no protection of their rights in law.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #348
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    If the government wasn't providing benefit to taxpayers based on them holding a piece of paper issued by the government, gay people wouldn't be interested in "redefining" marriage. It's only the government definition that's being "redefined".
    That is mostly right. I don't think it is right to argue that the only reason gay people are interested in redfining marriage is because of government benefits to taxpayers who are married. There are a lot of reasons why I think that is wrong.

    1. Because "domestic partnerships" would have provided that same benefit but are rejected by homosexuals.

    2. Because less than 10% of homosexuals are married in any state or country where homosexual marriage is legal.

    3. Because the real goal is "normalization" of homosexuality, not "equal rights", which already exist.

    All this suggests that the real truth is that homosexuals, as a group, are much more interested in arguing that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally normal than they are in actually getting married.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  9. #349
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    And just to piggyback on that, isn't it funny that courts are quite capable of establishing rights related to common-law relationships, the financial product of those relationships, and the offspring of those relationships and yet those who support government sanction/involvement in marriage claim that without the government piece of paper, people would have no protection of their rights in law.
    That's actually quite odd. Common law marriage has been... well... "common".

    I've been trying to explain throughout all this drama for months and even years that this isn't about the ability to have a long term committed relationship; it's been about trying to force the government to sanction homosexual unions for the sake of normalization of homosexuality. I'm somewhat inclined to agree that the government shouldn't be sanctioning relationships at all.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    That is mostly right. I don't think it is right to argue that the only reason gay people are interested in redfining marriage is because of government benefits to taxpayers who are married. There are a lot of reasons why I think that is wrong.

    1. Because "domestic partnerships" would have provided that same benefit but are rejected by homosexuals.

    2. Because less than 10% of homosexuals are married in any state or country where homosexual marriage is legal.

    3. Because the real goal is "normalization" of homosexuality, not "equal rights", which already exist.

    All this suggests that the real truth is that homosexuals, as a group, are much more interested in arguing that homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally normal than they are in actually getting married.
    Homosexuals and heterosexuals are "equally normal" and there are only two ways of having the government recognize that - a) get out of the marriage business and stop setting social policy through the tax code or b) recognize all codified relationships as equal as they relate to access to benefits under the tax code.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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