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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #181
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    No, I disagree. Gender, Which Walker used to form his opinion, was fatally flawed, and unsupported by the finding of fact, even though he found it (I guess) sufficient to draw his conclusions. There are two genders, men and women, and both of them are subject to the same conditions regarding marriage. They are both equally limited and privileged with respect to marriage. A homosexual is a male or a female that is "attracted" to someone of the same gender, yes, but society has decided, in this case, that this arrangement is not suitable, or preferred in granting the marriage privilege? Opposite genders compliment each other in unequivocal material ways that benefit society, whereas homosexuals do not, at least not nearly in the same way.


    Tim-
    And there are several different races that were told there were specific conditions of marriage, they fell under the same conditions in many states that banned interracial marriage, white people can marry white people but black people cannot marry white people. Nothing about marriage legally requires that difference in the sexes/genders, so it is inherently unequal.

    A man can do something a woman cannot do, marry a woman, and this is solely based on his sex/gender. That is treating the genders differently. Doesn't matter that a woman can also do something that a man can't do, marry a man. That too is treating the genders differently without any state interest being furthered by doing so.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #182
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    I love the fear equal rights generates and all the false claims and fallacies "like marriage isnt a right" that come with that fear.

    facts and court cases prove marriage to be a right if ANYBODY can bring ONE fact to the table proving different please do so now, we would all love to read this fact that says that SCUTOS and all the other court cases are wrong and we should go with you opinion lol

    fact remains marriage is a right, but if anybody disagrees please bring your proof forward now
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  3. #183
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Opposite genders compliment each other in unequivocal material ways that benefit society, whereas homosexuals do not, at least not nearly in the same way.
    That is of course just your opinion that homosexuals do not benefit society.

  4. #184
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    So says the echo chamber, yet despite the "many times" this has occurred, you all seem to have a difficult time producing evidence of a single case?
    Posted at least once in this thread alone, but I'll post again for you.

    Video: 14 Supreme Court Rulings on Marriage | American Foundation for Equal Rights

    Your specific claim is that marriage is not a right (note: that is marriage alone).

    SCOTUS disagrees with you.

    Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967): “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”
    Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur, 414 U.S. 632, 639-40 (1974): “This Court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.”
    These and many more are from SCOTUS decisions that prove you wrong.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #185
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Opposite genders compliment each other in unequivocal material ways that benefit society, whereas homosexuals do not, at least not nearly in the same way.

    Tim-
    ... In what material ways do homosexuals not compliment each other? Do they not buy homes together or purchase the same things heterosexual couples do? Do they not pay taxes?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #186
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    That is of course just your opinion that homosexuals do not benefit society.
    Of course it is, but not quite. I didn't say they did not benefit society, even though I really don't see any upside to homosexual relationships, I'm sure there are some that disagree. The point of Sutton pointing out this in his opinion was not what you might initially think. He mentions it because he eloquently leads up to the inescapable fact (At least in this decision) that the cases cited do not constitute a 14th and due process challenge (Something I've been saying upon deaf ears for almost a decade), and further, that a legislative body coming to this conclusion about what compliments society "better" is arrived upon with careful, lucid, and rational basis. Similar to, IMO, why courts consistently avoid challenges from would-be fathers to decide the fate of their unborn children, should the mother choose to abort. Although I fervently disagree that only the women gets to decide, I at least see the rationale behind it.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    ... In what material ways do homosexuals not compliment each other? Do they not buy homes together or purchase the same things heterosexual couples do? Do they not pay taxes?
    My questions are can they not make medical decisions for each other? Can they not legally take care of end of life decisions? Should they not be allowed to be recognized as the legal kin of their partner? Should they not be allowed to claim their partner's family as their inlaws? Should they not be covered under the Family and Medical Leave Act? Should they not be allowed to inherit their loved one's, mate's, significant other's property, in the absence of a will saying otherwise, due to their being two men or two women vice a man and a woman? These are all things that are actually covered by marriage/spousal laws, not personal beliefs on what people believe marriage should be about. These are the things that legal marriage is really about because these are the things covered by the laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #188
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Of course it is, but not quite. I didn't say they did not benefit society, even though I really don't see any upside to homosexual relationships, I'm sure there are some that disagree. The point of Sutton pointing out this in his opinion was not what you might initially think. He mentions it because he eloquently leads up to the inescapable fact (At least in this decision) that the cases cited do not constitute a 14th and due process challenge (Something I've been saying upon deaf ears for almost a decade), and further, that a legislative body coming to this conclusion about what compliments society "better" is arrived upon with careful, lucid, and rational basis. Similar to, IMO, why courts consistently avoid challenges from would-be fathers to decide the fate of their unborn children, should the mother choose to abort. Although I fervently disagree that only the women gets to decide, I at least see the rationale behind it.


    Tim-
    He is wrong. There is a valid constitutional issue here, unequal treatment under the laws because the laws of marriage itself, that cover spouses, in no way distinguish between what "wives" do as legal spouses and what "husbands" do, and why you need one of each in a marriage for it to legally operate. Legally speaking, marriage is not "fundamentally changed" at all, despite Sutton claiming as such. Marriage is only changed for those who believe that marriage should be a certain way that is not actually found in the laws regarding marriage and spouses.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #189
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Then they should challenge those laws. OR perhaps the merchants should challenge the laws. The point still is that the fact that other laws exist that are stupid, pointless, or bad laws doesn't mean that we still shouldn't use the Constitution to strike down other laws that have been challenged and violate the US Constitution.
    I agree but simply because a law is stupid, pointless, bad or excludes some desired minority personal choice does not make them unconstitutional. The "valid state interest" test should include the desire of the majority unless specific language in the constitution expressly prohibits that law/class of laws (which can only be added/changed by majority vote). Most zoning laws, that evolve over time, fail that "valid state interest" test but it is time and popular (majority) opinion that cause them to be changed. I seriously doubt that bans on SSM (or marijuana) will survive much longer, however, not due to any change in what constitutes a "valid state interest" but due to a change in the attitude of the majority (which I consider to be the ultimate valid state interest).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I agree but simply because a law is stupid, pointless, bad or excludes some desired minority personal choice does not make them unconstitutional. The "valid state interest" test should include the desire of the majority unless specific language in the constitution expressly prohibits that law/class of laws (which can only be added/changed by majority vote). Most zoning laws, that evolve over time, fail that "valid state interest" test but it is time and popular (majority) opinion that cause them to be changed. I seriously doubt that bans on SSM (or marijuana) will survive much longer, however, not due to any change in what constitutes a "valid state interest" but due to a change in the attitude of the majority (which I consider to be the ultimate valid state interest).
    No, it should not include the desire of the majority, since that is the way the law was enacted to begin with. That is counter to the entire point of having the law reviewed for whether it was constitutional or not. If someone has standing under the Constitution, then that would mean that the law might conflict with their rights, which means it should not matter how that law was put into place, only whether it violates the rights of a person/group or not.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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