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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #161
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I had previously called June 2015. (end of the current SCOTUS session) It looked like I might be wrong after SCOTUS rejected cert before.

    Now it looks like my schedule could be back on track. Depends on whether they go for an en banc hearing and if that drags out, it could force things to 2016.

    I have to wonder about something pointed out in the dissent for this decision: the ruling seems so poorly thought out and supported that it almost seems like these judges wanted to create a circuit split so SCOTUS would be forced to take the case.

    And that leads me to wonder whether or not this is the cover SCOTUS wanted in the first place. "Oh, well, looks like we HAVE to take the case now. Well, we tried to keep our hands off, but now we have to decide!"
    I dont know about SCOTUS but i do get the feeling that its possible this was ruled this way to push it upstiars and i actually suspected it would happen. Though i did not think now, i thought that last or next to last circuit would do it.
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  2. #162
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The SCOTUS has recognized a right to a state recognized marriage, many times. Plus, there is the right to equal protection under the law, which covers those things that may not in themselves be rights, such as getting a driver's license is not a right, yet laws regarding them must treat people equally.
    That equal protection does not mean that if state A allows (or does not tax) X, then state B must also do so as well anymore than it means that if state B disallows (or taxes) Y then state A must do as well. There is little sense in having states if the wishes of a federal judge trump their power to pass laws that differ from one another. Laws concerning marriage, voting, guns and recreational drugs differ greatly among the several states yet there is but one constitution defining the rights of the people and powers of the federal gov't.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That equal protection does not mean that if state A allows (or does not tax) X, then state B must also do so as well anymore than it means that if state B disallows (or taxes) Y then state A must do as well. There is little sense in having states if the wishes of a federal judge trump their power to pass laws that differ from one another. Laws concerning marriage, voting, guns and recreational drugs differ greatly among the several states yet there is but one constitution defining the rights of the people and powers of the federal gov't.
    correct and they can vary until they infringe on "rights" and then they get corrected which is exactly what the fed is supposed to do.
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Deciding constitutional questions is not "legislating from the bench", it is in fact the very role of the judicial system in our system of checks and balances.

    It's not a constitutional question. Both this court and the USSC have said as much. Nice try though.


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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    The reasoning of the "majority" fails to recognize the many changes to the laws since Baker, including the fact that the laws in Baker were not written into the state constitutions at that time. The legal definition of marriage at the time of Baker was based on personal views of what marriage should be not how marriage was restricted through the laws. There was no actual restriction written into the law at the time of Baker. The specific laws in these cases being challenged did not exist when Baker was ruled on. Plus, at the time of Baker, sodomy laws were still in place, homosexuality was still regarded as a mental illness by many, and there were pretty much no laws recognizing sexuality as a "classification" that could be protected. So there have been significant changes since the Baker decision that do affect how these courts should rule on these cases. In fact, Baker was based on "well marriage has always meant this so that means same sex couples simply do not qualify", which means the entire decision in Baker was flawed and most definitely does not apply today, when marriage does not include an inherent definition of "a man and a woman" in itself.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #166
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That equal protection does not mean that if state A allows (or does not tax) X, then state B must also do so as well anymore than it means that if state B disallows (or taxes) Y then state A must do as well. There is little sense in having states if the wishes of a federal judge trump their power to pass laws that differ from one another. Laws concerning marriage, voting, guns and recreational drugs differ greatly among the several states yet there is but one constitution defining the rights of the people and powers of the federal gov't.
    No. It means that if a state allows someone of a certain sex to do something, such as marry someone of a certain sex, then they must allow a person of the opposite sex to marry that certain sex of person as well unless the state can show that restricting such marriages furthers an important state interest.

    If a man can marry a woman, then equal protection says that a woman should also be able to legally marry a woman unless the state can show how not allowing a woman to marry a woman furthers an important state interest.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #167
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    correct and they can vary until they infringe on "rights" and then they get corrected which is exactly what the fed is supposed to do.
    If a right was defined in 1868 then it does not change in 2014. Are we to believe that SSM is a "right" that was defined in 1868 - or that (some) judges have changed their minds (evolved their positions?) on that matter?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. It means that if a state allows someone of a certain sex to do something, such as marry someone of a certain sex, then they must allow a person of the opposite sex to marry that certain sex of person as well unless the state can show that restricting such marriages furthers an important state interest.

    If a man can marry a woman, then equal protection says that a woman should also be able to legally marry a woman unless the state can show how not allowing a woman to marry a woman furthers an important state interest.
    OK - what important state interest is served by imposing limits upon the days/hours of alcohol or fireworks sales? If states must constantly defend their laws, to any and all that can find a single federal judge to demand it, then any question of "why not X?" or "why Y?" becomes a burden placed upon the state to essentially prove innocence.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #169
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    OK - what important state interest is served by imposing limits upon the days/hours of alcohol or fireworks sales? If states must constantly defend their laws, to any and all that can find a single federal judge to demand it, then any question of "why not X?" or "why Y?" becomes a burden placed upon the state to essentially prove innocence.
    The problem is that they treat everyone the same. I don't agree with such laws either, but they are almost impossible to challenge under an equal protection claim, like marriage bans are being challenged under. It comes down to can the law be challenged and who has standing to do so. Same sex marriage bans can easily be challenged due to you can easily show that some group is being treated unequally by the law, due to the law or that it violates some other right specifically guaranteed by the US Constitution.

    States must only defend their laws when those laws are challenged and the person challenging them can show standing.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #170
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If a right was defined in 1868 then it does not change in 2014. Are we to believe that SSM is a "right" that was defined in 1868 - or that (some) judges have changed their minds (evolved their positions?) on that matter?
    marriage is a right, this fact will not change no matter how you try to spin it.
    If this fact bothers you , your argument is with SCOTUS who and the many other court cases that affirm this fact

    Are we to believe that your false opinion trumps theirs or that we should evolve on the matter and ignore facts based on your opinion?

    nah, ill stick with facts and the fact remains marriage is a right
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