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Thread: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

  1. #141
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    They glossed over virtually all modern court decisions surrounding marriage and treatment of gay individuals and relied on the 11 word summary judgment of Baker v. Nelson.

    Here is the decision (it starts on page 17)
    http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-con...ng-11-6-14.pdf

    The dissent starts on page 53, and basically answers your question about how poorly the court ruled.

    The author of the majority opinion has drafted what would make an engrossing TED Talk
    or, possibly, an introductory lecture in Political Philosophy. But as an appellate court decision, it
    wholly fails to grapple with the relevant constitutional question in this appeal: whether a state’s
    constitutional prohibition of same-sex marriage violates equal protection under the Fourteenth
    Amendment. Instead, the majority sets up a false premise—that the question before us is “who
    should decide?”—and leads us through a largely irrelevant discourse on democracy and
    federalism.


    She nailed it.
    That was a very long read but thank you, sometimes ive had trouble finding all the rulings but i have read them all.

    Yes the Dissent nails it while i feel the ruling talks endless circles, more logic based on personal opinion and not law and a ruling that feels. . . well . .. . not like a ruling at all but like a complete dodge of the issue. How he circle talked and danced around whether a state has an interest was almost eye numbing. Referring to cases like Abbot but at the same time basically ignoring them is hilarious.

    IMO I think the dodge and lack of a solid ruling was done on purpose but thats just my opinion. It was done to push it up the chain, which is fine by me. Forcing SCOTUS to rule is likely a faster path to equal rights.

    I pointed out how DOMA was HUGE and would create dominoes and it did, ive been saying that i feel it wont be any longer than 2016 but now it might as well be as soon as next year.

    Im actually happy theres a circuit break because IMO i think the road to equal rights victory will be even faster now.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    One can appreciate the ruling which in effect says that courts should interpret law established by legislatures and not establish law from the bench.

    That said, I'm incredibly tired of the whole debate. I don't give a rat's ass about who marries whom and how they want to do it. Get the government out of this mess and let people live their own lives as they see fit - want a church/religious marriage, find a church to marry you - want a civil marriage, visit a lawyer, create a contract, sign off on it and you're done.

    Government is far too intrusive in the personal lives of citizens and this nonsense is a prime example of it.
    You see this is why many believe it should be left to the states. Some states allow it and some don't. You can go where it's allowed and live. On the Left they believe that all aspects of life should be decided at the federal level.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  3. #143
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, JC.

    : I care less than you do, if that's possible, with one exception - age limitations. If you are 15 or younger, you're still considered a child by most states - but there are states that allow marriage at 15! Kansas allows marriage at age 15, and New Hampshire is 13 for bride, 14 for groom. These two States, plus the other 48 do require approval from a judge and one or both parents if the persons involved are less than 18 years of age or younger, however. In Shakespeare's tale of Romeo and Juliet, both committed suicide when they couldn't marry at 16 and 13 respectively. Stupid, silly teenagers!

    For the rest of the populace, marry whomever you wish and good luck! "I love being married. It's so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life." >>Rita Rudner.
    Good morning Lady P - agree with you completely - I can't imaging a child as young as 13 being "worldly" enough and having experienced life enough to be prepared to commit to marriage - I know 50 yr olds who aren't mature and experienced enough!!

    And I love your Rudner quote - very true!
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  4. #144
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You see this is why many believe it should be left to the states. Some states allow it and some don't. You can go where it's allowed and live. On the Left they believe that all aspects of life should be decided at the federal level.
    states dont get to decided equal rights and individual rights, sorry thats silly.

    what happens when a married couple is in a state that doesnt protect thier rights?

    So if you and your spouse are in a state that doesnt recognize your legal marriage and you get in an accident now what? you cant visit your spouse and have no medical say cause you have no marriage?

    What if your spouse goes to that state and cheats, its fine cause your rights arent protected there.

    Or better yet your spouse dies in that state with you at home. You have no power to see the body or have it shipped back, also the car and possessions that are there stay there because you have no right to them. That adopted kid? they become property of the state now too.


    no thanks, ill stick with equal rights being protected nationally
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    states dont get to decided equal rights and individual rights, sorry thats silly.

    what happens when a married couple is in a state that doesnt protect thier rights?

    So if you and your spouse are in a state that doesnt recognize your legal marriage and you get in an accident now what? you cant visit your spouse and have no medical say cause you have no marriage?

    What if your spouse goes to that state and cheats, its fine cause your rights arent protected there.

    Or better yet your spouse dies in that state with you at home. You have no power to see the body or have it shipped back, also the car and possessions that are there stay there because you have no right to them. That adopted kid? they become property of the state now too.


    no thanks, ill stick with equal rights being protected nationally
    I'm not sure marriage is a right is it? I mean you have to get a license for it. I think it's legally more of a contract.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #146
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm not sure marriage is a right is it? I mean you have to get a license for it. I think it's legally more of a contract.
    SCOTUS ruled 14 times it is and yes it is a legal contract which needs protected not infringed on by states
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  7. #147
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    states dont get to decided equal rights and individual rights, sorry thats silly.what happens when a married couple is in a state that doesnt protect thier rights?So if you and your spouse are in a state that doesnt recognize your legal marriage and you get in an accident now what? you cant visit your spouse and have no medical say cause you have no marriage?What if your spouse goes to that state and cheats, its fine cause your rights arent protected there. Or better yet your spouse dies in that state with you at home. You have no power to see the body or have it shipped back, also the car and possessions that are there stay there because you have no right to them. That adopted kid? they become property of the state now too.no thanks, ill stick with equal rights being protected nationally
    There is no Constitutional right to have a state recognize gay marriage, or any marriage, so the argument fails. Many "rights" are determined at the state or even local level.

  8. #148
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    1.)There is no Constitutional right to have a state recognize gay marriage, or any marriage, so the argument fails.
    2.) Many "rights" are determined at the state or even local level.
    1.) Sorry SCOTUS disagrees and say it is a right
    so no the STATEMENT (not an argument) is backed by facts, rights and court cases and doesnt fail at all
    if this fact bothers you, your argument is with them, not me
    2.) never said otherwise
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  9. #149
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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) Sorry SCOTUS disagrees and say it is a right so no the STATEMENT (not an argument) is backed by facts, rights and court cases and doesnt fail at allif this fact bothers you, your argument is with them, not me2.) never said otherwise
    You are incorrect. The court has recognized a right to marriage, not a right to a state-sanctioned marriage. It is perfectly legal for states to get out of the marriage business altogether. If you believe otherwise, perhaps you can provide FACTS that support this instead of more STATEMENTS that do not.

    And yes, you claimed that states don't get to determine equal rights. This is false. They can't write laws that conflict with the Federal law, but they do determine those rights within their borders.
    Last edited by Taylor; 11-07-14 at 08:33 AM.

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    Re: Appeals court upholds laws against gay marriage in Michigan, 3 other states

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I think I've been pretty evolving on my view of taxes. I don't necessarily see them as an infringement of rights as they serve a net benefit in theory. Low taxes mean there are entire urban communities who have no access to clean water, food, electricity and transportation.
    Actually, taxes that are too low means there are entire rural communities that would have no access to clean water, food, electricity, and transportation. In almost all states, the tax bases in the cities float the rural areas. For example, in Kansas if it were not for the tax base on the Kansas side of Kansas City, they would be lucky to have a flush toilet, much less a paved road, in western Kansas. Most wealth transfers are not between rich and poor, but rather from urban areas to rural areas and from young to old.
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