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Thread: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It's like saying bush*'s support of TARP shows that he had abandoned his belief in balanced budgets and smaller government.
    Not really. One could look at the history of Bush's term, which was generally keeping the deficit around $200 Bil +- about $100, with numerous instances where it dropped year to year and also look at the context of the economic crash, and easily reason the support of TARP was a short term abandonment of his beliefs in balanced budgets and smaller government to deal with a uniquely troublesome economic period.

    It's similar to why I don't scream and rant, like some conservatives, about Obama's $1 Trillion dollar deficits his first few years.

    However, one can look at Obama's history with the deficit, seeing that it's gone down each and every year, and put that in context with what his administration has been suggesting which is that we've largley came out of the fiscal crisis in question and that we're in a substantially better place, and come to a conclussion that there isn't a similar reasonable event occuring to explain the sudden increase again on the deficit.

    I'll admit in one or two of my posts I may've been stating it as a bit too much of a certainty as opposed to suggesting it appears that way to me based on the projections and their context within the economic situation in the country. I don't know what the future holds, I don't know for certainty his intents, and the new congress does shake the equation up a bit. However, going off the information that was available, the potential bounce back up of the deficit prior to even reaching the floor of what it was at the fiscal crisis gave me pause.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushinator View Post
    i figured it was more than appropriate to put into light some of the developments in recent years.
    As was I. My "facts" were no more abitrary than yours. They were also highlighting the FACTUAL realities regarding the deficit over Obama's term. The only difference is you don't like mine so you desperately wish to hand wave them away and hope your ridiculous smugness and idiotic smileys will magically make it so.

    And to them i say so what?
    No less relevant than yours. You were simply pointing out facts that occured economically under his presidency...so was I. You attempted to present facts to butress your opinion that America is "[doing] well", desperately attempting to present your opinion as something more than an opinion. I presented facts highlighting that there are multiple ways to measure the situation depending on the arbitrary time period you wish to look at (mine was no less arbitrary than yours, which was the point) and the context in wish you want to measure it, and as such while your opinion regarding the well being of America in a fiscal stance is perfectly reasonable it is far from absolute truth.

    Your facts were bound by relative arbitrarity.
    As are yours. My facts are no less arbitrary in their boundries than yours are. You wish to judge how "well" America is doing under Obama only from the scope of where it was when he started and where he was now. I wish to judge how "well" America is doing by taking in a broarder scope of history that is available to us, looking at where it was in relatively recent times and where it is now. The context I choose is no less arbitrary than yours, it is simply difference...which was precisely the point. To highlight that "facts" can change depending on the various factors one uses to get those facts, and that is why they attempting to support ones position with facts still doesn't make the opinion itself a fact.

    As to what numbers I'm citing, I'm remaining consistent and going off the standards and comparisons that the OP's article goes off. My apologies if you dislike the source of what we're discussing here. If you do, take it up with the article's author. Perhaps he'll have higher regard for smileys and desperate attempts to put forward a persona of intellectual superiority in an effort to hide stereotypical hyper partisan ranting....sadly, I don't. Have a great day continuing to use piss poor tactics and then getting dismissive and attempting to hand wave them away when a person highlights that fact by presenting a similar argument back towards you.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not really. One could look at the history of Bush's term, which was generally keeping the deficit around $200 Bil +- about $100, with numerous instances where it dropped year to year and also look at the context of the economic crash, and easily reason the support of TARP was a short term abandonment of his beliefs in balanced budgets and smaller government to deal with a uniquely troublesome economic period.

    It's similar to why I don't scream and rant, like some conservatives, about Obama's $1 Trillion dollar deficits his first few years.

    However, one can look at Obama's history with the deficit, seeing that it's gone down each and every year, and put that in context with what his administration has been suggesting which is that we've largley came out of the fiscal crisis in question and that we're in a substantially better place, and come to a conclussion that there isn't a similar reasonable event occuring to explain the sudden increase again on the deficit.

    I'll admit in one or two of my posts I may've been stating it as a bit too much of a certainty as opposed to suggesting it appears that way to me based on the projections and their context within the economic situation in the country. I don't know what the future holds, I don't know for certainty his intents, and the new congress does shake the equation up a bit. However, going off the information that was available, the potential bounce back up of the deficit prior to even reaching the floor of what it was at the fiscal crisis gave me pause.
    Obama has a record of decreasing deficits, and even with this one year increase his record will be one of reducing deficits, both in actual dollars and as a % of GDP. Even with this one year increase, Obama will have reduced the deficit as a % of GDP to a fraction of what it was when he took office. Even more important is that this one year projected increase is due to projections that have lowered the rate of economic growth (IOW, it's not caused by increased spending) and the same projections show continued reductions in the deficit in the years after.

    In addition, projections in 2014 show a $5 *trillion* reduction in deficits over the next ten years compared to the 2010 ten year projection. IMO, that is not an indication of a belief that deficits have a "floor"

    PS - With respect to bush*'s record, in four of his 8 years, the deficit increased as a % of GDP
    Last edited by sangha; 11-06-14 at 10:47 AM.
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My "facts" were no more abitrary than yours.
    Bull****!

    Con made outlandish claims about Obama and was in need of a reality check. You responded with a bunch of "so what" statements that entirely miss the forest for the trees. Historical comparison of nominal deficits, even within your selective time frame, is piss poor analysis.

    They were also highlighting the FACTUAL realities regarding the deficit over Obama's term. The only difference is you don't like mine so you desperately wish to hand wave them away and hope your ridiculous smugness and idiotic smileys will magically make it so.
    You didn't factor for inflation, output, financial context, etc.... No less a partisan foot stomp than what Con put forth.

    No less relevant than yours.
    Nonsense.

    You were simply pointing out facts that occured economically under his presidency...so was I.
    Again, you compared nominal deficits within a 27 year time frame. Do you not understand the weakness of this method? Why not compare current deficits to those of the 1960's? Hell, why not go the full monty and compare them to the 1930's?

    You attempted to present facts to butress your opinion that America is "[doing] well", desperately attempting to present your opinion as something more than an opinion.
    My opinion is contrived from positive economic analysis.

    I presented facts highlighting that there are multiple ways to measure the situation depending on the arbitrary time period you wish to look at (mine was no less arbitrary than yours, which was the point) and the context in wish you want to measure it, and as such while your opinion regarding the well being of America in a fiscal stance is perfectly reasonable it is far from absolute truth.
    Your presentation was amateur at best. If you wish to discuss political economy, be prepared to be called out when you string together weak analysis. I have already explained the weakness. You have not done the same with respect to my comments. Claiming my statements were arbitrary, without a valid point as to why, simply won't cut it.

    I wish to judge how "well" America is doing by taking in a broarder scope of history that is available to us, looking at where it was in relatively recent times and where it is now.
    The way you went about it was weak.

    The context I choose is no less arbitrary than yours, it is simply difference...which was precisely the point.
    No, it is simply weakness on your part.

    I claimed the deficit has shrank by more than 2/3 in reference to another member who likes to squwack about $1.3 trillion deficits of 2009 and 2010. Which is a fact that bothers Con immensely. You chirped in about some ridiculous reference to times past, without any consideration to a plethora of other factors that render your "facts" nothing short of irrelevant.

    To highlight that "facts" can change depending on the various factors one uses to get those facts, and that is why they attempting to support ones position with facts still doesn't make the opinion itself a fact
    Adorable!

    Instead of trying to "show me", how about you stick to the topic. It would save you face and both of us time.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Obama has a record of decreasing deficits, and even with this one year increase his record will be one of reducing deficits, both in actual dollars and as a % of GDP.
    I've never said otherwise. Actually, I've acknowledged that REPEATEDLY and stated, from a narrow scope of his tenure as President alone, that that is a good thing.

    Even with this one year increase, Obama will have reduced the deficit as a % of GDP
    Which is all fine and dandy, but not what the OP of this thread was speaking about. It spoke about the deficit as a hard number, not as a percentage of GDP, so my comments were made judging it based on said criteria. This goes back PRECISELY to my PRIMARY POINT I've been making in all of my posts. Let me re-iterate it one more time since people seem to keep missing it again and again and instead misrepresenting what I'm actually saying and what I'm actually arguing by taking my statements to be literal examples of my belief as opposed to actions being done for an illustrative purpose....

    Economic facts are just that...facts. However, how one comes to those facts are built upon subjective choices with regards to the context in which those facts are generated. Do you look at pure deficit numbers or do you look at deficit as a % of GDP? Do you compare the numbers under Obama only to his own term or to previous terms as well? Do you judge a the deficit over a President's tenure based on its highest and lowest point, it's average, or simply it's starting and end point? Do you give more weight on the deficit to the President, Congress, or split between both in some fashion? Do you adjust for inflation or do you not? Do you take into account the context of how and why a deficit went up and how and why it may be going down outside? Do you trust projections at all, and if so how far forward do you trust them? Do you attribute 2009 to George Bush, as typically you do since the Budget would normally be executed prior to the new President? Or do you attribute it at least in part to Obama, since that year was atypical and the budget wasn't actually passed under Bush but months into the Obama administration?

    I can go on and on, but I believe you should get my point there. There are a PLETHORA of ways a person can come at an issue to generate the "facts" they wish to shout. Which is absolutely fine and acceptable, as long as one actually acknowledges and realizes that they don't have a monopoly on facts...and that their opinions based off those facts aren't actually objective truth...because ultimately their "facts" themselves are based on subjective choices as to how they were generated.

    My comments regarding how I view Obama on the deficit was based on the OPs subjective choice of going with straight deficit numbers, and with respect to that I stated that I agreed with a positive assertion for Obama using the OPs subjective means of measurement (looking only at his tenure). I also stated that if you change the frame of reference, comparing it to more recent history broadly as opposed to just comparing it to the worst portion of time that happened to fall near the start of Obama's presidency, that I would view him in a more negative fashion. Undoubtably, if you change the other subjective choices the OP made, like changing from straight deficit to % of GDP, my opinion would change yet again because the factors being judged change.

    WHICH WAS EXACTLY MY PRIMARY POINT.

    My issue was not with people suggesting Obama's done well with the economy. My issue isn't with people suggesting they've been unhappy with it either. My issue has been with those acting as if there is only one way to possibly view this particular economic issue and only one seemingly objective conclussion to be drawn from it simply because of "facts"....which completely ignoring that said facts are simply products of numerous subjective decisions and are not in and of themselves the absolute means of measurement of the issue.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Which is all fine and dandy, but not what the OP of this thread was speaking about. It spoke about the deficit as a hard number, not as a percentage of GDP, so my comments were made judging it based on said criteria.
    You're full of ****!

    From post # 1:

    The shortfall of $483.4 billion in the 12 months ended Sept. 30 was 2.8 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product of $17.2 trillion over the same period, according to data compiled by Bloomberg using Commerce Department figures. The figure peaked at 10.1 percent of GDP in December 2009.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Very hackish

    The fact is, the right endlessly whines about spending, deficits, and debt and now that they've won the senate, many here are under the delusion that spending will be cut. Meanwhile, there's a long history of spending increasing steadily over time regardless of who controls congress and under republican rule, both deficits and debt have increased faster (in both actual $$ and as a % of GDP) when the repubs are in the majority or have the White House.

    But I guess it's easier to hurl hackish claims about "Obamabots" than take a cold hard look at how the right has failed in their main objective when they gain power.
    Oh, they haven't failed. Their main objective is to gain power.
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I've never said otherwise. Actually, I've acknowledged that REPEATEDLY and stated, from a narrow scope of his tenure as President alone, that that is a good thing.
    Yes, I know that and I haven't said you were saying otherwise. I was just making my argument

    You know, by using facts!! (heh! I couldn't resist putting that jab in there)



    Which is all fine and dandy, but not what the OP of this thread was speaking about. It spoke about the deficit as a hard number, not as a percentage of GDP, so my comments were made judging it based on said criteria.
    And it's fine, if that's what you want to do. However, I believe that measuring the deficit as a % of GDP is the more relevant measure, and that seems to be the consensus of economists.

    This goes back PRECISELY to my PRIMARY POINT I've been making in all of my posts. Let me re-iterate it one more time since people seem to keep missing it again and again and instead misrepresenting what I'm actually saying and what I'm actually arguing by taking my statements to be literal examples of my belief as opposed to actions being done for an illustrative purpose....

    Economic facts are just that...facts. However, how one comes to those facts are built upon subjective choices with regards to the context in which those facts are generated. Do you look at pure deficit numbers or do you look at deficit as a % of GDP? Do you compare the numbers under Obama only to his own term or to previous terms as well? Do you judge a the deficit over a President's tenure based on its highest and lowest point, it's average, or simply it's starting and end point? Do you give more weight on the deficit to the President, Congress, or split between both in some fashion? Do you adjust for inflation or do you not? Do you take into account the context of how and why a deficit went up and how and why it may be going down outside? Do you trust projections at all, and if so how far forward do you trust them? Do you attribute 2009 to George Bush, as typically you do since the Budget would normally be executed prior to the new President? Or do you attribute it at least in part to Obama, since that year was atypical and the budget wasn't actually passed under Bush but months into the Obama administration?

    I can go on and on, but I believe you should get my point there. There are a PLETHORA of ways a person can come at an issue to generate the "facts" they wish to shout. Which is absolutely fine and acceptable, as long as one actually acknowledges and realizes that they don't have a monopoly on facts...and that their opinions based off those facts aren't actually objective truth...because ultimately their "facts" themselves are based on subjective choices as to how they were generated.

    My comments regarding how I view Obama on the deficit was based on the OPs subjective choice of going with straight deficit numbers, and with respect to that I stated that I agreed with a positive assertion for Obama using the OPs subjective means of measurement (looking only at his tenure). I also stated that if you change the frame of reference, comparing it to more recent history broadly as opposed to just comparing it to the worst portion of time that happened to fall near the start of Obama's presidency, that I would view him in a more negative fashion. Undoubtably, if you change the other subjective choices the OP made, like changing from straight deficit to % of GDP, my opinion would change yet again because the factors being judged change.

    WHICH WAS EXACTLY MY PRIMARY POINT.

    My issue was not with people suggesting Obama's done well with the economy. My issue isn't with people suggesting they've been unhappy with it either. My issue has been with those acting as if there is only one way to possibly view this particular economic issue and only one seemingly objective conclussion to be drawn from it simply because of "facts"....which completely ignoring that said facts are simply products of numerous subjective decisions and are not in and of themselves the absolute means of measurement of the issue.
    Yes, that's a good point and you've made it well. I don't take issue with that point. I was merely questioning your argument that Obama's may believe there's a deficit "floor" below which he neither wants, nor believe he needs, to go below.
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #219
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Of course, but so does the President (by congress). He is given money to enforce the laws. He doesnt HAVE to spend it all. Like, hes given X dollars for performing a function but has lattitude as to how much he can spend. For example, the last bill that was signed:




    Thats a blank check. So blame congress for giving it, and President for using it.
    There's an interesting example. He has a blank check to make payroll for the military.

    I wonder what would be said if the government ran out of money to give the soldiers their pay?
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushinator View Post
    Citing nominal dollars is a flawed approach to describing the situation. Reason being, it disallows comparison to a broader historical context of our fiscal reality. You should considering it in terms of output, e.g. nominal deficit as a percentage of nominal GDP. Instead, you chose to compare nominal deficits to those of years past. A textbook definition of comparing apples to oranges.



    Are you unaware that $450 billion in 2008 is not the same as $450 billion in 2014?



    Deficit reduction in the tune of $1 trillion certainly is something to cheer or laud about. Your uninformed opinion is of no consequence to this.
    It must be lonely in your world as your self proclaimed brilliance trumps everyone else's. Please tell me exactly what Obama did to lower the deficit and why the Democrats got thumped in the midterms with what you perceive as results to cheer about??

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