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Thread: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

  1. #161
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    What I want to know is during those years that we had a Republican POTUS and republicans controlled both houses of congress, why didn't they pursue serious border control and build a fence? Why didn't they eliminate welfare? Why didn't they fix SS? Why did they spend MORE money instead of less? Why did they grow the size of government? Why did they run huge budget deficits?

    I'm just asken.
    It's a great question. Similar to why didn't we get universal health care, significant firearm regulation and banning of certain types of firearms, significant increases on the income and capital gains taxes for the rich, a pathway to citizenship, greater pre-elementary care, a closure of gitmo, extraction from middle eastern military affairs, etc when we have had a full democratic controlled congress and president.

    Simple answer really, that gets complicated as you delve deeper into it.

    1. It's not as simple as having a majority in both parts of government
    2. There's conflicting views on various issues even within each party themselves
    3. Politicians are politicians first, party members second, and many realize there are issues that may not be popular even though their party generally likes them
    4. There's no accounting for the unfortunate realities that the world may toss at you at any given point that may supersede ideology

    The unfortunate reality that unhappy members of both parties have had to realize at the start of this century is that even with a majority control its very very unlikely you're going to get everything you want.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I might add that we have the Republican fiscal "experiment" running here in Kansas with Brownback and his statehouse cronies. It has been an absolute unmitigated disaster for the state.
    I keep seeing people reference this. Am I crazy or something or is that just the only state with a republican governor and republican legislature?

    Does Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississipi, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming just not count? Because all of them are completely Republican controlled as well. Can I cherry pick one of them and present that as the titular example of a republican run state at the exclusion of all others?

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I keep seeing people reference this. Am I crazy or something or is that just the only state with a republican governor and republican legislature?

    Does Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississipi, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming just not count? Because all of them are completely Republican controlled as well. Can I cherry pick one of them and present that as the titular example of a republican run state at the exclusion of all others?
    The reason Kansas is front and center is that they've been far far more successful in actually implementing the tax policies that the GOP says they want. I mean MASSIVE tax cuts and the like. Kansas politicians have made their state the great GOP red state "live experiment" as Governor Brownback put it.

    After his election, Brownback, who was a U.S. senator for 14 years and a 2008 presidential candidate, quickly moved to consolidate conservative power in the state by successfully challenging more moderate Republicans. Advised by Arthur Laffer, the father of supply-side economics, and supported by special interest groups backed by conservative billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, he pushed through legislation that cut taxes and spending, eliminated state jobs and denied far more applications for welfare assistance — not to mention that he tightened abortion regulations and loosened gun rules.

    Brownback promised that the efforts would drive economic growth, create jobs and stabilize the Kansas budget. But the state is now reporting a more than $300 million revenue shortfall. The poverty rate increased. The state’s economy expanded a total of 2.3 percent in inflation-adjusted terms over the past two years, half the rate of its four neighbors. And Kansas’s credit rating has been downgraded.

    link...

    Can't condemn all Republicans for this because after he called it a live experiment in republican conservative policies many Republicans got pissed. Mostly because the experiment is failing miserably.

    Here's Brownback's position on it:

    Brownback didn’t just keep his promise, he embarked on a radical “real live experiment” in conservative governance. As he later explained to the Wall Street Journal, “My focus is to create a red-state model that allows the Republican ticket to say, ‘See, we’ve got a different way, and it works.’ ”

    Brownback stepped out and tried to take a lead position by bragging on what conservative governance is and should look like so it's mostly a case of a guy building a giant pedestal to put himself on and watching it collapse in upon itself.
    Last edited by poweRob; 11-04-14 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    To me, that seems like a random milestone that means nothing.

    Can you explain the significance of it?
    It isn't of consequence. Whether or not it is significant 10-15 years from now depends on what the interest rates will be then when these shorter term bonds become due, along with the longer term bonds at a time when Japan that is in far worse shape needs to pay its pensioners. China is the only nation that really seems to maintain a good balance of debt to GDP.

    That it is not of consequence today however does reflect that additional government spending is not creating velocity in GDP growth. There is no economic magnification happening. The lack of multiplying effect in additional government spending means we are either spending it on the wrong things or we are in a real dollar recession that is being masked. I am not sure which I think the case is. This is not a democrat-republican thing. Clinton and Bush policies are horrible for us today even if they were good for people then. The federal reserve has done an amazing job avoiding the Greater Depression. Obama probably put money into the wrong things with no short-term payoffs and the GOP probably has blocked things that could have worked better for us economically, but neither side has the cleanest or the dirtiest hands. The business environment has been tilted over decades in favor of Wall Street/Asia over Main Street/North America.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I keep seeing people reference this. Am I crazy or something or is that just the only state with a republican governor and republican legislature?

    Does Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississipi, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming just not count? Because all of them are completely Republican controlled as well. Can I cherry pick one of them and present that as the titular example of a republican run state at the exclusion of all others?
    I think that is a perfectly reasonable point you are making. I brought it up because I live here. I would point out that Arkansas has a Democratic Gov. (most popular in the nation). I would also point out that Kansas is where almost all the moderates were purged from the state government, and the conservatives in the state took full control. They implemented the fiscal ideas conservative Republicans have been campaigning on for a generation, and it has indeed been a disaster. This in a state that for decades was a very well run, pragmatic state.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn - Bloomberg



    OMG, we need to stop Obama from spending us into ruin!!

    Oh, wait.... the deficit is SHRINKING? Whodathunkit! I guess he's NOT the spender in chief as he's been labeled by the consistent and reliable deficit increasing Republicans.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    It would be nice if everyone understood the Constitutional separation of duties. The President is supposed to faithfully execute the will of Congress. Congress is responsible for the budget. All revenues bill must start in the House.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    It would be nice if everyone understood the Constitutional separation of duties. The President is supposed to faithfully execute the will of Congress. Congress is responsible for the budget. All revenues bill must start in the House.
    So is the executive branch. The Executive Branch puts forth the budget. The congress then votes on it or modifies it and then votes on it. The budget generally originates in the executive branch with the executive branch putting in a budget request to congress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  8. #168
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Republicans in the old confederacy have little in common with those in the Great Plains like one of my favorites Sen. Coburn.

    Unfortunately, with idiots like Reid in charge, I don't expect DEMs to see the Populist wave any better than GOPs.

    I expect Obama to cooperate with Boehner/McConnell as well as they've cooperated with him .

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    The reason Kansas is front and center is that they've been far far more successful in actually implementing the tax policies that the GOP says they want. I mean MASSIVE tax cuts and the like. Kansas politicians have made their state the great GOP red state "live experiment" as Governor Brownback put it.

    After his election, Brownback, who was a U.S. senator for 14 years and a 2008 presidential candidate, quickly moved to consolidate conservative power in the state by successfully challenging more moderate Republicans. Advised by Arthur Laffer, the father of supply-side economics, and supported by special interest groups backed by conservative billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, he pushed through legislation that cut taxes and spending, eliminated state jobs and denied far more applications for welfare assistance — not to mention that he tightened abortion regulations and loosened gun rules.

    Brownback promised that the efforts would drive economic growth, create jobs and stabilize the Kansas budget. But the state is now reporting a more than $300 million revenue shortfall. The poverty rate increased. The state’s economy expanded a total of 2.3 percent in inflation-adjusted terms over the past two years, half the rate of its four neighbors. And Kansas’s credit rating has been downgraded.

    link...

    Can't condemn all Republicans for this because after he called it a live experiment in republican conservative policies many Republicans got pissed. Mostly because the experiment is failing miserably.

    Here's Brownback's position on it:

    Brownback didn’t just keep his promise, he embarked on a radical “real live experiment” in conservative governance. As he later explained to the Wall Street Journal, “My focus is to create a red-state model that allows the Republican ticket to say, ‘See, we’ve got a different way, and it works.’ ”

    Brownback stepped out and tried to take a lead position by bragging on what conservative governance is and should look like so it's mostly a case of a guy building a giant pedestal to put himself on and watching it collapse in upon itself.
    Physics is Phun

  9. #169
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Clearly you lack an understanding of the subtlety of satire....
    ...or your post didn't come across as particularly satirical. You're basically blasting the concept of bringing facts into a political discussion. What should we use instead, by the way? Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock? <--- sarcasm


    All the rest of your post is blabbering on and on attempting to explain away, give context to, or provide alternative reasonings for the facts I presented...
    Actually, what I'm telling you to do is acknowledge MORE facts and more data, in order to unearth the underlying causality. Yes, truly I'm an idiot for trying to gather enough information to draw conclusions, and properly ascribe credit and/or blame for the resulting economic circumstances. <--- sarcasm


    Multiple people in this thread continue to make or imply conclussions and scream loudly that they are being backed up by FACTS. When people question them about the context and actual reasoning behind those facts, as you're doing here to my post, these individuals have generally launched back with a "these are facts, deal with it" style attitude dismissing any further discussion as to the "what" or "why" behind said facts.
    Yeah, that's probably because various individuals flatly refuse to acknowledge incredibly obvious facts, because of pre-existing partisan views. E.g. the refusal to recognize that the policies of one administration can have effects on a subsequent administration is self-serving and insufficient.

    I don't see any problems in calling people on that type of bias, or in actually trying to gather more information in order to draw a better conclusion.


    Your questioning of my facts does a wonderful job of illustrating the issue with just screaming "Facts facts facts" over again....
    If you say so. Unless you missed how I didn't dispute your facts, I pointed out how they were deceptively selective -- an error we can address by introducing the proper context. Nor do I recall actually ruling out any facts -- rather, I explicitly talked about expanding an overly simplified analysis.

    Do you have an alternate recommendation, by the way? Should we just stop citing any facts? Should we talk about our feelings about debt-to-GDP ratios? Give up discussing it altogether?


    You have no issue with the people who initiated the providing of overly simplified and selective analysis labeled as "facts" because it meshes with your hyper partisan world view....
    No, I do have issues with people are too selective with information, and exclude critical information -- regardless of "which side" it favors. I guess you missed the line where I said: "it doesn't really make sense to give any single party all the credit or all the blame. It doesn't work like that." Wow. Raging partisanship on my part. <--- sarcasm


    ....you suddenly do have an issue when I'm presenting it not as a serious argument but as an example highlighting the issue with their premise. Yeah, that is "nice".
    Actually, I thought you were just being a garden-variety hypocrite. I don't have a problem with anyone who is willing and able to apply a more sophisticated analysis.

  10. #170
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    you can source the Congressional Budget Office as cited here at Factcheck.org...

    The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office released a report in August that said the stimulus bill has "[l]owered the unemployment rate by between 0.7 percentage points and 1.8 percentage points" and "[i]ncreased the number of people employed by between 1.4 million and 3.3 million."

    linkypoo...

    Now explain how you don't like that data. I'm sure you will.
    Do you even realize what the CBO reports and how they get their information. I am waiting for you to give me the valid source that measures "saved" jobs? What Obama did was create a stimulus plan that allowed the states the freedom not to make tough choices. Obama bailed out union contracts and liberals trumpet jobs savings because that is what the liberal elites told you. Reality tells you there is no such measurement and CBO is an instrument of Congress and makes projections based upon Congressional assumptions. You really need a more credible source like BLS

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