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Thread: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

  1. #141
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Sure I have. I've acknowledged already in this thread that Obama has reduced the deficit as it relates to it's level at the time he came into office. This post wasn't and hasn't tried to argue that claim is incorrect.
    Good, we agree.

    What this post is doing...and I assure you, it absolutely is addressing your post...is highlighting the faulty nature of your logic.

    Your entire premise seems to be that your OPINION based conclussions are butressed by "facts" and therefore must be absolute truths, rather than opinions, that must have no other explanations other those facts you've presented. What my post was doing was highlighting that through the use of arbitrary contextual selections and methods of measurement one can craft a variety of facts that one can use to try and present their opinion as something other than an opinion.
    If that was the point of the OP, then you'd be correct. But it wasn't, so your rebuttal was solely an effort to strip Obama of any credit for deficit reduction by pointing to Congress as the main reason for deficit reduction. Your reason for doing that I can only guess at.

    What is my opinion is that Republicans don't do jack when they have the Presidency. In fact, they do exactly what Republicans are railing against when Democrats have the White House. Thus, Republicans are snake oil salesmen wanting nothing more than to put money into the hands of those at the top while raiding the poor and middle classes.

    That's my opinion.

    Secondly, it does address your original assertion. It's not my fault you've since moved the goal posts, nor is it my responsability to deal singularly with your moved goal posts. Your initial sneering comment suggested REPUBLICANS in general, not republican presidents, have not been "consistent and reliable deficit increasers". My facts were presented to highlight the issue that you were trying to present your OPINION as "Fact" based on one set of facts, while ignoring another set of facts that tells an entirely different story.

    If one looks only at the presidency, one could say republicans have been a consistent and reliable deficit increasers. If one looks at the Congress, one could say republicans have been a consistent and reliable deficit decrease. In both cases, the assertion's legitimacy depends on the "facts" one is subjectively choosing to use. Which was my point.
    In the OP I was addressing the President. Thus, the comparison is focused on presidents. I'll accept that I didn't do it was clearly as I should have, but that was indeed what I was driving at.

    And Republican congresses do preside over deficit reduction is a fact (in recent history) as well. So while it's accurate if one wishes to talk about just conservative presidents, which you've since done by moving the goal posts, it's inaccurate to claim it for "republicans" in general as you did in the OP.
    I accept that correction. Republicans Congresses have been in office and presided over a shrinking deficit.

    Republican presidents don't end their terms with a lower deficit than when they got into office.

    Um. yes it does. I'm sorry that "fact" bothers you, but it does.

    It fell both times Republicans had full controll since 1989. It's risen both times the Democrats have had control since 1989. The only time it's been inconsistent in that time frame is the two periods of time that congress has been split. That is absolutely consistent.

    Of the 10 years of total republican control it fell 80% of the time. Of the 10 years of total democratic control it fell 50% of the time. That's a pretty consistent rate for falling under the republicans, and a pretty consistent walk down the middle of the democrats.
    This is why you've solely focused on Congress and ignored the Presidency.

    I had to "hopscotch" years because the congress changes controll. Just because congresses changes control more often then a president doesn't mean I'm "hopscotching".

    Dem's had control 89 to 1994.
    Reps had control 95 to 2000
    Split controll from 01 to 2002
    Reps had control from 03 to 2006
    Dems had control from 07 to 2010
    Split control from 11 to the present

    That's fact, that's reality. I didn't "hop" over any time frame, I looked at every single year during that time frame...just as you were doing with the presidency.
    Which presidency am I hopscotching over?

    Your annoyance and pitiful attempt to dismiss my facts (while desperately avoiding acknowledging they're true since you can't prove otherwise) highlights exactly my point as to what you're doing. You were hoping to sit here and scream "fact fact fact" and make everyone just think that your assertion based on those facts are absolutely true without any further analysis. Now that someone is presenting a similar style, but with the opposite effect, you're getting huffy about it and trying to just hand wave it away.

    My "facts" are no less true than yours. My pointing at them is no more arbitrary or less "clear" than yours.
    I never tried to refute the facts you presented because they're facts.

    What you've done is ignored the fact that Republican presidents have not been the bringers of balance. They've increased the deficit when they have the presidency. You'd have to go back pretty far to find this to not be true.

    No, what you wish is that I'd just accept your "facts" as the only "facts" avialable, that I'd accepted your subjective starting point as the only one available, that I accept your opinion of what it should be measured against as fact, and that I should ignore you moving the goal posts and that there are more "republicans" in government than just the President. Unfortunately, that "wish" is not going to happen. I am addressing your point, and to do so I have to address the flawed method in which you're making your point.
    Please don't reshape my argument.

    As far as goal post moving, you'd clearly done this by your dogged focus on Congress, which was something I never actually address (or at least meant to address).
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  2. #142
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Did those shovels ever get to their destination from those shovel ready jobs stimulus?
    You mean those stimulus checks that the GOP bitched about not doing anything then going to pose with constituents with giant checks as if they were not only for it but did it all themselves? That money?

    Jindal presents parish with $500K

    Stimulating Hypocrisy: 114 Lawmakers Block Recovery While Taking Credit For Its Success

    Republican hypocrites vote no on stimulus but take money and credit for 'good policy'

    Schwarzenegger Slams GOP Stimulus Hypocrisy

    Many Republican politicians have railed against the stimulus while praising or taking credit for stimulus money provided to their districts. One prominent Republican governor is calling out his colleagues' hypocrisy.

    California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was proud to accept stimulus dollars for his state praised the program for creating or saving over 150,000 jobs. "I have been the first governor of the Republican governors to come out and to support the stimulus money because I say to myself, this is terrific," Schwarzenegger told ABC's Terry Moran Sunday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  3. #143
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Do you believe keeping more of what you earn has to be paid for? Don't you spend, save, invest, or pay down debt with that extra money? How does that affect economic growth and the economy?
    No why should we pay for it when we can just borrow more and more. Cutting taxes without cutting spending does just that. It is the signature GOP move and you love them for it.

  4. #144
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Do you think that all of Bush's deficit causing policies just ended when Obama took office? You do know that at least 2 trillion of Obama's deficits were caused solely by the revenue loss from Bush's Great Recession?

    Neither Bush Nor Obama Caused Our Deficit Problem - Mic
    LOl Bushs great recession. How did Bush cause that global recession again? I love how you liberals hang everything on Bush and nothing on Obama. Obama extended the Bush tax cuts which means they effectively became the Obama tax cuts. So any deficit that arose out of the Obama tax cuts should hang around Obamas neck. Obama didn't end the Prescription Drug program so it was just another entitlement. That means Obama cant blame Bush for that any more than Bush could blame Johnson for the deficit caused by Medicare/Medicaid. And finally, Obama increased the cost of Afghanistan through the surge he authorized. Even though Bush inherited a recession and from his predecessor and a terror plot hatched under Clinton, none of you liberals give him a pass on that. You start counting from his first day in office. Be honest for once and do the same thing for your guy.

  5. #145
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'll also be honest, I may be more irked by your post then is rightly fair. There's been a host of various posters over the past week or so that I've ran into in various threads that have basically been using the tactic of:

    1. Imply or say an assertion
    2. Say a fact that backs up that assertion
    3. Present said fact as if it's the only way to view the issue
    4. Act as if initial assertion is fact by continually pointing to the fact stated in step 2

    Simply spit balling out statistics and facts helps give some meat to a persons opinion, but doesn't magically turn ones opinion into fact. Additionally, something being a fact doesn't mean how one interprits that fact is ALSO a fact.

    To explain another way.

    Say I state "It's 50 degrees outside, it's cold".

    The notion that it's "50 degrees outside" is a fact. Whether or not it's "cold" however is subjective opinion and depends entirley on how I'm viewing and measuring that fact I initially stated.

    Then say someone goes "It's not cold! It was 20 degrees yesterday, this is practically spring". And I retort "It's 50 degrees out, that's a fact"...ignoring that they didn't actually argue that it wasn't 50 degrees, they were arguing with my assertion that it's cold. But all I'm doing is pointing back to the "fact" I posted and acting like my subjective opinion of what that fact means (that it's cold) is the only way to interprit it. Thus, I think that just repeating the fact over and over again somehow is disproving their disagreement with my assertion.

    So back to my point with you...

    I get, in general, what you're doing. You're annoyed that SOME republicans went over board decrying Obama as an apocolyptic budgetary figure who would drive us into horrible horrible deficits and the facts, based on your subjective choice of the scope you wish to look at, suggests that's not the case and you're having a good laugh at it. And that's fine.

    My annoyance however was that you seemingly weren't simply implying he's not as bad as the Republicans made him out to be but rather than he's actually been GOOD. Those are two WILDLY different assertions. And it seemed you were presenting that implication as fact, when really it's opinion, by continually pointing at your "facts" that are widely based on subjective measurements and choices.

    However most likely my greater annoyance was that you were just one in a line of multiple posters (some others in this very thread actually) that have been taking this kind of tactic and style lately and my frustration with all of it compounded likely came out directed just at you. That likely made my posts a bit more hostile then you deserved and I apologize for that.

    I disagree with your seemingly implied assertion that Obama's been good as it relates to the deficit. I disagree with your seeming assertion that the President alone should be given ALL credit and ALL blame as it comes to the deficit. I disagree with your broad assertion that republicans, not just republican presidents, are consistent deficit increasers. However, I do agree with you that some of the republican fear mongering of what Obama would do regarding the economy was over the top and erronious and I do agree that he has lowered the deficit as it relates to his time in office and that is a good thing (we just strongly disagree it seems on the level of how "good" it is).
    Obama has been good on the deficit... of course that depends on many other factors, but if we are going to measure a presidency by the end results and not specific policies (as the Republican talk machine often does) then we have to say Obama is in fact doing well. I'm targeting the duplicity of many Republican complains and poking fun at it.

    My assertion about the President alone getting credit is based on the overall idea that the president is where the buck stops. If people are going to focus on that, then they have to also give credit when it appear to be positive.

    In terms of Republicans not decreasing the deficit, I was focusing on President because these elected official represent the culmination of their party's policy directives. I was not being specific as it's also a fact that Republican governors do balance budgets at times and Democrat governors do increase deficits at times. I never meant to address a wholesale view of all elected Republicans in all publicly held offices. I would be completely incorrect and totally outside of the facts on that.
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
    http://soulinblackandwhite.blogspot.com/

  6. #146
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    You mean those stimulus checks that the GOP bitched about not doing anything then going to pose with constituents with giant checks as if they were not only for it but did it all themselves? That money?

    Jindal presents parish with $500K

    Stimulating Hypocrisy: 114 Lawmakers Block Recovery While Taking Credit For Its Success

    Republican hypocrites vote no on stimulus but take money and credit for 'good policy'

    Schwarzenegger Slams GOP Stimulus Hypocrisy

    Many Republican politicians have railed against the stimulus while praising or taking credit for stimulus money provided to their districts. One prominent Republican governor is calling out his colleagues' hypocrisy.

    California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was proud to accept stimulus dollars for his state praised the program for creating or saving over 150,000 jobs. "I have been the first governor of the Republican governors to come out and to support the stimulus money because I say to myself, this is terrific," Schwarzenegger told ABC's Terry Moran Sunday.
    Yep, those stimulus checks that were supposed to keep the unemployment rate from exceeding 8%. That didn't happen did it? Now with regard to Republican Governors requesting their taxpayers money back, not sure why you have a problem with that but apparently you believe the money paid by the taxpayers of Louisiana and TX belong to you and the other states. I would have asked for it too. Now please tell me how Republicans blocked usage of the money with Democrats in control of Congress??

    I really would like to find the site that measures saved jobs and is credible? Please point me to that site? how do you know jobs were saved?

  7. #147
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Good, we agree.
    Cool

    so your rebuttal was solely an effort to strip Obama of any credit for deficit reduction by pointing to Congress as the main reason for deficit reduction.
    Not at all. My rebuttal was solely an effort to highlight that there are multiple "facts" one can look at as it relates to republicans increasing or decreasing deficits, and attempting to highlight that just because something is a "Fact" doesn't necessarily mean it tells the whole story by demonstrating a set of facts that tell a different story than yours in terms of Republicans / Democrats.

    My personal take on deficits is that it's a mix of Congress and the Presidency. I see Presidents like QB's in football...often getting too much blame and too much credit. I've long held on this forum, and I can give you quotes from old posts if you need proof, that I personally think the best results occur when we have a congress that's one party and a president that's another. Specifically, my preference tends to be Moderate Dem pres and conservative congress. The reason for this is because I believe it best helps to find a good middle ground...especially with my specific preferenec which I think tends to result in good fiscal policy with a check on some of the crazier social stuff and maintaining of some of our social safety nets.

    You seemed to be giving all credit and blame to the Presidents. I simply was offering a similar one sided, and to my mind narrow viewed, reading of the situaiton and attempted to highlight how simply saying something is a "fact" doesn't necessarily give your assertion more weight.

    In the OP I was addressing the President. Thus, the comparison is focused on presidents. I'll accept that I didn't do it was clearly as I should have, but that was indeed what I was driving at.
    Thank you for accepting that you should've been more clear. Can't read your mind, and your OP to me seemed much more an attack on Republicans in general, not just republican presidents, which is what gave the implication your comment about "republicans" actually mean REPUBLICANS, not "republican [presidents]".

    This is why you've solely focused on Congress and ignored the Presidency
    Go back and check my posts in this thread. My first few posts addressed the presidency almost exlcusively and still pointed to reasons why I don't view the Obama economic realities anywhere near as positively as you. My posts in this thread simply does not jive with the reality you're trying to paint.

    Which presidency am I hopscotching over?
    I didn't say you hopscotched over one. I said the EXACT OPPOSITE about you. I specifically said you looked at every president over the time period you were looking at, just as I did. You were the one that accused ME of hopscotching, not the other way around.

    What you've done is ignored the fact that Republican presidents have not been the bringers of balance.
    How can I ignore something I never disputed. Whether or not republicans presidents have brought balance has nothing to do with my disagreement with the seeming implicatoin from you that Obama's efforts are worthy of praise or cheering, nor to do with my disagreement with what APPEARED to be your assertion that republicans in general cause increased deficits.

  8. #148
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    No why should we pay for it when we can just borrow more and more. Cutting taxes without cutting spending does just that. It is the signature GOP move and you love them for it.
    Cutting taxes increased revenue as has been proven so please tell me why tax cuts that increase revenue aren't being paid for with that increase in revenue? Please show me the math that proves your claim that tax cuts contributed a major part of the debt generated?

    What is a signature Democrat move is convincing good people that keeping more of what you earn is an expense to the govt. and has to be paid for. Keep eating that up, liberals love you

  9. #149
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yep, those stimulus checks that were supposed to keep the unemployment rate from exceeding 8%. That didn't happen did it? Now with regard to Republican Governors requesting their taxpayers money back, not sure why you have a problem with that but apparently you believe the money paid by the taxpayers of Louisiana and TX belong to you and the other states. I would have asked for it too. Now please tell me how Republicans blocked usage of the money with Democrats in control of Congress??

    I really would like to find the site that measures saved jobs and is credible? Please point me to that site? how do you know jobs were saved?
    Why don't you ask the governors? Like Schwarzenegger who said it did... in the link provided in the post of mine you just quoted.

    Or you can source the Congressional Budget Office as cited here at Factcheck.org...

    the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office released a report in August that said the stimulus bill has "[l]owered the unemployment rate by between 0.7 percentage points and 1.8 percentage points" and "[i]ncreased the number of people employed by between 1.4 million and 3.3 million."

    linkypoo...
    Last edited by poweRob; 11-04-14 at 06:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  10. #150
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Why don't you ask the governors? Like Schwarzenegger who said it did... in the link provided in the post of mine you just quoted.
    Why should I listen to any politician? Name for me the site that measure saved jobs? Thanks in advance. By the way what was the California unemployment rate with those saved jobs??

    You willingly buy what you are told when that person tells you what you want to hear. I buy the data and there is no such site that measure saved jobs.

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