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Thread: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

  1. #131
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    That's a nice list... but you've not actually addressed anything I said.
    Sure I have. I've acknowledged already in this thread that Obama has reduced the deficit as it relates to it's level at the time he came into office. This post wasn't and hasn't tried to argue that claim is incorrect.

    What this post is doing...and I assure you, it absolutely is addressing your post...is highlighting the faulty nature of your logic.

    Your entire premise seems to be that your OPINION based conclussions are butressed by "facts" and therefore must be absolute truths, rather than opinions, that must have no other explanations other those facts you've presented. What my post was doing was highlighting that through the use of arbitrary contextual selections and methods of measurement one can craft a variety of facts that one can use to try and present their opinion as something other than an opinion.

    Secondly, it does address your original assertion. It's not my fault you've since moved the goal posts, nor is it my responsability to deal singularly with your moved goal posts. Your initial sneering comment suggested REPUBLICANS in general, not republican presidents, have not been "consistent and reliable deficit increasers". My facts were presented to highlight the issue that you were trying to present your OPINION as "Fact" based on one set of facts, while ignoring another set of facts that tells an entirely different story.

    If one looks only at the presidency, one could say republicans have been a consistent and reliable deficit increasers. If one looks at the Congress, one could say republicans have been a consistent and reliable deficit decrease. In both cases, the assertion's legitimacy depends on the "facts" one is subjectively choosing to use. Which was my point.

    Conservative presidents don't preside over deficit reduction is a fact (in recent history).
    And Republican congresses do preside over deficit reduction is a fact (in recent history) as well. So while it's accurate if one wishes to talk about just conservative presidents, which you've since done by moving the goal posts, it's inaccurate to claim it for "republicans" in general as you did in the OP.

    Another fact is the deficit does not consistently rise and fall based on which party controls Congress.
    Um. yes it does. I'm sorry that "fact" bothers you, but it does.

    It fell both times Republicans had full controll since 1989. It's risen both times the Democrats have had control since 1989. The only time it's been inconsistent in that time frame is the two periods of time that congress has been split. That is absolutely consistent.

    Of the 10 years of total republican control it fell 80% of the time. Of the 10 years of total democratic control it fell 50% of the time. That's a pretty consistent rate for falling under the republicans, and a pretty consistent walk down the middle of the democrats.

    which is why you had to hopscotch years in order for your narrative to work.
    I had to "hopscotch" years because the congress changes controll. Just because congresses changes control more often then a president doesn't mean I'm "hopscotching".

    Dem's had control 89 to 1994.
    Reps had control 95 to 2000
    Split controll from 01 to 2002
    Reps had control from 03 to 2006
    Dems had control from 07 to 2010
    Split control from 11 to the present

    That's fact, that's reality. I didn't "hop" over any time frame, I looked at every single year during that time frame...just as you were doing with the presidency.

    Your annoyance and pitiful attempt to dismiss my facts (while desperately avoiding acknowledging they're true since you can't prove otherwise) highlights exactly my point as to what you're doing. You were hoping to sit here and scream "fact fact fact" and make everyone just think that your assertion based on those facts are absolutely true without any further analysis. Now that someone is presenting a similar style, but with the opposite effect, you're getting huffy about it and trying to just hand wave it away.

    My "facts" are no less true than yours. My pointing at them is no more arbitrary or less "clear" than yours.

    I thank you for the reasonable argument, but I'd wish you'd actually address my point instead of redirecting it.
    No, what you wish is that I'd just accept your "facts" as the only "facts" avialable, that I'd accepted your subjective starting point as the only one available, that I accept your opinion of what it should be measured against as fact, and that I should ignore you moving the goal posts and that there are more "republicans" in government than just the President. Unfortunately, that "wish" is not going to happen. I am addressing your point, and to do so I have to address the flawed method in which you're making your point.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Jobs created would be additional jobs from when the recession started.
    Now you are recreating terminology to suit your position of weakness. There were 10 million jobs created on Obama's watch. It is a fact, whether you care to admit it or not.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Why should I answer any question of yours if you refuse to answer any question I've posted?
    I just answered your question, the Republicans only controlled the Congress and WH during the Bush term from 2004-2007 and did you notice the budget deficits. You asked the question and I gave you the answer. You just don't like the answer. That is the only time in the last 50 years that happened thus your chart is distorted at best

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    And yet Bush, who had full control of both Houses, increased the deficit. Reagan also increased the deficit.

    Why do Republicans not seem to be able to reduce the deficit when they have the White House? Is it their policies? What?

    Personally, I blame their policy of supply side economics. Until they release that fetish, they'll always increase the deficit.
    You really don't seem to have a grasp on history. The Republicans only controlled the Congress and WH after the 2004 election until Democrats took control in the 2006 elections. I believe most here will accept an apology from you for being wrong so try it.

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I'm tired of this false narrative. The Obama economy has far outstripped all other western economies is GDP growth and unemployment reduction since the Bush meltdown.
    The question should be why has Obama succeeded where other leaders have failed?


    Two-Speed Recovery: US vs. EU | World Affairs Journal


    CHART OF THE DAY: US Vs. UK Growth - Business Insider
    Then please explain to me why Obama has lost 13% of his support since taking office? Could it be that the majority in this country don't see what you see? Could it be that the numbers that really matter are the stagnant economic growth, 20 million unemployed/under employed/discouraged workers, 7 plus trillion added to the debt, and a world that is less safe today than when he took office?

    Guess the real facts will always get in the way of your opinions. As for the U.S. economy outpacing the world, when has never been the case?

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You really don't seem to have a grasp on history. The Republicans only controlled the Congress and WH after the 2004 election until Democrats took control in the 2006 elections. I believe most here will accept an apology from you for being wrong so try it.
    Sooo, the Republican did indeed control both Congress and the White House.

    What am I apologizing for again?
    A man without fear is a fool, a man that succumbs to his fear is a coward and a brave man acknowledges fear yet presses on.
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    So you are pretending that the tax cuts, the Iraq war and the prescription drug benefit bill that he signed were not Bush's responsibility? Who was responsible then?
    Do you believe keeping more of what you earn has to be paid for? Don't you spend, save, invest, or pay down debt with that extra money? How does that affect economic growth and the economy?

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    ...
    I'll also be honest, I may be more irked by your post then is rightly fair. There's been a host of various posters over the past week or so that I've ran into in various threads that have basically been using the tactic of:

    1. Imply or say an assertion
    2. Say a fact that backs up that assertion
    3. Present said fact as if it's the only way to view the issue
    4. Act as if initial assertion is fact by continually pointing to the fact stated in step 2

    Simply spit balling out statistics and facts helps give some meat to a persons opinion, but doesn't magically turn ones opinion into fact. Additionally, something being a fact doesn't mean how one interprits that fact is ALSO a fact.

    To explain another way.

    Say I state "It's 50 degrees outside, it's cold".

    The notion that it's "50 degrees outside" is a fact. Whether or not it's "cold" however is subjective opinion and depends entirley on how I'm viewing and measuring that fact I initially stated.

    Then say someone goes "It's not cold! It was 20 degrees yesterday, this is practically spring". And I retort "It's 50 degrees out, that's a fact"...ignoring that they didn't actually argue that it wasn't 50 degrees, they were arguing with my assertion that it's cold. But all I'm doing is pointing back to the "fact" I posted and acting like my subjective opinion of what that fact means (that it's cold) is the only way to interprit it. Thus, I think that just repeating the fact over and over again somehow is disproving their disagreement with my assertion.

    So back to my point with you...

    I get, in general, what you're doing. You're annoyed that SOME republicans went over board decrying Obama as an apocolyptic budgetary figure who would drive us into horrible horrible deficits and the facts, based on your subjective choice of the scope you wish to look at, suggests that's not the case and you're having a good laugh at it. And that's fine.

    My annoyance however was that you seemingly weren't simply implying he's not as bad as the Republicans made him out to be but rather than he's actually been GOOD. Those are two WILDLY different assertions. And it seemed you were presenting that implication as fact, when really it's opinion, by continually pointing at your "facts" that are widely based on subjective measurements and choices.

    However most likely my greater annoyance was that you were just one in a line of multiple posters (some others in this very thread actually) that have been taking this kind of tactic and style lately and my frustration with all of it compounded likely came out directed just at you. That likely made my posts a bit more hostile then you deserved and I apologize for that.

    I disagree with your seemingly implied assertion that Obama's been good as it relates to the deficit. I disagree with your seeming assertion that the President alone should be given ALL credit and ALL blame as it comes to the deficit. I disagree with your broad assertion that republicans, not just republican presidents, are consistent deficit increasers. However, I do agree with you that some of the republican fear mongering of what Obama would do regarding the economy was over the top and erronious and I do agree that he has lowered the deficit as it relates to his time in office and that is a good thing (we just strongly disagree it seems on the level of how "good" it is).

  9. #139
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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    Sooo, the Republican did indeed control both Congress and the White House.

    What am I apologizing for again?
    For saying that the Republican in total control of the Govt. did not control or reduce the deficits? The only time in the last 50 years when they controlled the House, Senate, and the WH was in 2004-2007 but that reality escapes you and you cannot admit that your chart is wrong and meaningless. Please take a civics course so you understand who controls the spending

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    Re: U.S. Deficit Decline to 2.8% of GDP Is Unprecedented Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushinator View Post
    Now you are recreating terminology to suit your position of weakness. There were 10 million jobs created on Obama's watch. It is a fact, whether you care to admit it or not.
    I am waiting for any proof that the jobs created were 10 million and from what base? Did those shovels ever get to their destination from those shovel ready jobs stimulus?

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