• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New Russian Boldness Revives a Cold War Tradition: Testing the Other Side

Why do think he's weak? What do expect him to do short of going to war with Russia over a country that is not only divided in its loyalties but not of strategic importance to us.
Ukraine has tremendous potential strategic/economic significance. This is why Russia is doing everything possible - even applying direct force - to prevent Ukraine from turning West.
 
Simpleχity;1063941844 said:
Ukraine has tremendous potential strategic/economic significance. This is why Russia is doing everything possible - even applying direct force - to prevent Ukraine from turning West.

From the outside looking in, from a distance, I suspect there are also other reasons why Russia is trying to prevent the West from camping out in its back yard, ESPECIALLY considering the contemporary record of the West, especially the US. Considering the rhetoric of Zbig and many others, the stated purpose of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, I would say their concerns are justified.
 
From the outside looking in, from a distance, I suspect there are also other reasons why Russia is trying to prevent the West from camping out in its back yard, ESPECIALLY considering the contemporary record of the West, especially the US. Considering the rhetoric of Zbig and many others, the stated purpose of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, I would say their concerns are justified.
As a sovereign nation, Ukraine should be free to choose its own destiny. Not history. Not backyards.
 
From the outside looking in, from a distance, I suspect there are also other reasons why Russia is trying to prevent the West from camping out in its back yard, ESPECIALLY considering the contemporary record of the West, especially the US. Considering the rhetoric of Zbig and many others, the stated purpose of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, I would say their concerns are justified.

Of course they are, but why be concerned of them? Diplomacy between our two nations are at a low point right now, there won't be any coming of minds. You gotta pick a side in this one too man.
 
Simpleχity;1063943773 said:
As a sovereign nation, Ukraine should be free to choose its own destiny. Not history. Not backyards.

Yeah, but we can all wish in one hand... you know? The big guys on the block do what they want with the small guys.

Kind of like this:

140714-israeli-airstrike_0_0.jpg


democracy_will_come.jpg


127406-004-A7123B8E.jpg
 
The big guys on the block do what they want with the small guys.
Ukraine isn't a small guy. 46 million people and the largest country totally within the European continent. It's current problems stem from Russian domination/neglect for the past 300 years. This is why the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the EU and the West. Needless to say, such a shift would be a huge embarrassment to Russia.
 
Simpleχity;1063945691 said:
Ukraine isn't a small guy. 46 million people and the largest country totally within the European continent. It's current problems stem from Russian domination/neglect for the past 300 years. This is why the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the EU and the West. Needless to say, such a shift would be a huge embarrassment to Russia.

It looks like the that situation is over in the way the Georgian land grab is. The Russians are not giving back Crimea and probably will back the Eastern provinces' secession. And as the population there probably does in its majority want to go it with Russia....

The EU bungled it badly, and will pay a price in support.

The great price is being paid by the people of Ukraine, who believed the EU schmoozes about being the guarantor of Peace in Europe.
 
Simpleχity;1063945691 said:
Ukraine isn't a small guy. 46 million people and the largest country totally within the European continent. It's current problems stem from Russian domination/neglect for the past 300 years. This is why the majority of Ukrainians wish to align with the EU and the West. Needless to say, such a shift would be a huge embarrassment to Russia.

Russia > Ukraine

Big Guy > Little Guy

Sure, Ukraine is the size of like 4.6 Michigan's population wise, but there military, in comparison to Russia's, definitely makes them the Little Guy. Russia could have its way with the Ukraine just like Bubba does Little Guys in prison.
 
Russia > Ukraine

Big Guy > Little Guy

Sure, Ukraine is the size of like 4.6 Michigan's population wise, but there military, in comparison to Russia's, definitely makes them the Little Guy. Russia could have its way with the Ukraine just like Bubba does Little Guys in prison.
True enough. But force is not necessarily equivalent to righteousness. The US invading and annexing Cuba tomorrow would be just as wrong and illegal as Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in March.
 
The EU bungled it badly
I agree. They had no inkling of how far Putin would go to ensure Ukraine remains a captive state.
 
Simpleχity;1063945721 said:
True enough. But force is not necessarily equivalent to righteousness. The US invading and annexing Cuba tomorrow would be just as wrong and illegal as Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in March.

I didn't say anything about 'righteousness' though. I said Big Guy / Little Guy. You objected to Little Guy analysis at first.
 
Simpleχity;1063945725 said:
I agree. They had no inkling of how far Putin would go to ensure Ukraine remains a captive state.

What is so astounding is how few people here in Europe understand this.
 
What is so astounding is how few people here in Europe understand this.

They do not know what it is like to be bullied from pro-Russians! They sit there idle trying to wait it out from fears of escalation!
 
I didn't say anything about 'righteousness' though. I said Big Guy / Little Guy. You objected to Little Guy analysis at first.
I don't subscribe to the "might makes right" thesis.
 
Simpleχity;1063945754 said:
I don't subscribe to the "might makes right" thesis.

Okay. And? Do you think that I do or something? I'm sorry to ask, but is English your first language?
 
Simpleχity;1063943773 said:
As a sovereign nation, Ukraine should be free to choose its own destiny. Not history. Not backyards.

Gosh, you're a bigger romantic than I! :lol:
 
Of course they are, but why be concerned of them? Diplomacy between our two nations are at a low point right now, there won't be any coming of minds. You gotta pick a side in this one too man.

I'm a Libra, and I am afflicted with having to see both sides of any issue.

Why must I pick a side?

I wonder if one had to pick a side during the slavery controversy? Must one pick a side regarding torture?
 
Simpleχity;1063945721 said:
True enough. But force is not necessarily equivalent to righteousness. The US invading and annexing Cuba tomorrow would be just as wrong and illegal as Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea in March.

Yes, but if the US annexed Cuba tomorrow, it would be portrayed in the western media as a good thing, righteousness in action, action demanded by God, and other such propaganda.

What is the difference between news and propaganda? I digress.
 
I'm a Libra, and I am afflicted with having to see both sides of any issue.

Why must I pick a side?

I wonder if one had to pick a side during the slavery controversy? Must one pick a side regarding torture?

There is always a side to pick.
 
There is always a side to pick.

Neutrality is so very unpopular, I know.

It is such bizarre behavior to consider all sides to any controversy.
 
Neutrality is so very unpopular, I know.

It is such bizarre behavior to consider all sides to any controversy.

Neutrality, when it is one country against your homeland, is impossible.
 
Putin is such an arrogant prick child. He could be engaging the problems of the world instead of creating them. What an ignorant self-absorbed bastard ego-maniac.
 
Neutrality, when it is one country against your homeland, is impossible.

Is it the homeland, or the government of the homeland?
 
Is it the homeland, or the government of the homeland?

Homeland first, government second, all in the same place though so trivialities are irrelevant. If Russia attacks the U.S. Homeland, they'll obviously target official and civilian population centers alike.
 
These are obvious pretenses for american and UN involvement in war. the tensions are building. Main stream media didnt post what putin said a few days later, he talks about NATO and the UN pushing for a new order. I dont think russia is a great country, and i dont defend them. However, in this current process it is western government that is bullying russia.

Your assertions are chalked full of RT propaganda, half truths, and outright lies.

it was Russia that started all of this first with economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination:

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

This prompted peaceful protests to join the EU both of which were supported by the majority of Ukrainians:

Public opinion about Euromaidan

According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[126][127][128] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[126][129] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[130]

In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[6] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[130] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[131] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[130]

According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[132]

In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[133]

A study conducted at Harvard University examining public opinion in regular and social media found that 74% of Russian speakers in Ukraine supported the Euromaidan movement, and a quarter opposed.[134]

Public opinion about joining the EU


According to an August 2013 study by a Donetsk company, Research & Branding Group,[135] 49% of Ukrainians supported signing the Association Agreement, while 31% opposed it and the rest had not decided yet. However, in a December poll by the same company, only 30% claimed that terms of the Association agreement would be beneficial for the Ukrainian economy, while 39% said they were unfavourable for Ukraine. In the same poll, only 30% said the opposition would be able to stabilise the society and govern the country well, if coming to power, while 37% disagreed.[136]

Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favoured joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?"[137][138]

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.[139] On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[140]

In December 2013, then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov refuted the pro-EU poll numbers claiming that many polls posed questions about Ukraine joining the EU, and that Ukraine had never been invited to join the Union, but only to sign the Association Agreement.[141][142]


Euromaidan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The claim that the protesters were funded, armed, or directed by the US is absolutely false:

US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich


<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>
 
Back
Top Bottom