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Thread: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

  1. #141
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Geez. Do you not understand chicken-and-egg? Where did these first moths come from? Evolutionary theory remains wildly incomplete until that can be answered.
    Here's the thing:

    No, it really doesn't. Your problem is trying to draw this sharp line in between "chicken" and "not chicken." But in reality, such a line doesn't really exist on the evolutionary path of the chicken. Before the chicken, there was the chicken's dad. Dadchicken was pretty similar to the chicken, but not exactly the same. A little shorter or a little faster or slightly different coloring or whatever. But still a chicken, right? Well grandad chicken wasn't the same chicken either. A little, little bit more different from the chicken than dadchicken was from the chicken. Greatgrandad chicken was a little bit more different than that, even.

    If you repeat this for a few hundred thousand generations, your end result is something that doesn't really look like a chicken any more. In fact, if you put it together with a modern chicken, it wouldn't even be biologically compatible anymore. At some point, the DNA has become too different to interbreed properly. But each successive generation was pretty much the same as the next. So where did it become Not A Chicken?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  2. #142
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Well, as I see it, Francis is making news in restating Church positions because a lot of people see him as more liberal when in fact he is not diverging from Church positions in the slightest.

    It seems to be a special skill that Pope Francis has of stating the Church position in a way that sounds fresh to a lot of people.
    The difference is he is much more liberal and tolerant in tone, thus people perceive him as more liberal. You see the same thing with politicians. People judge whether a politician is liberal or conservative based more on their tone than their actual positions. The same is true with clergy.
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Here's the thing:

    No, it really doesn't. Your problem is trying to draw this sharp line in between "chicken" and "not chicken." But in reality, such a line doesn't really exist on the evolutionary path of the chicken. Before the chicken, there was the chicken's dad. Dadchicken was pretty similar to the chicken, but not exactly the same. A little shorter or a little faster or slightly different coloring or whatever. But still a chicken, right? Well grandad chicken wasn't the same chicken either. A little, little bit more different from the chicken than dadchicken was from the chicken. Greatgrandad chicken was a little bit more different than that, even.

    If you repeat this for a few hundred thousand generations, your end result is something that doesn't really look like a chicken any more. In fact, if you put it together with a modern chicken, it wouldn't even be biologically compatible anymore. At some point, the DNA has become too different to interbreed properly. But each successive generation was pretty much the same as the next. So where did it become Not A Chicken?
    This is why the whole concept of a "missing link" is erroneous. At no point in the evolution of any species would a taxonomist at the time classified the offspring of a species as any different species than the parent. Yet, looking back with a much broader view we can certainly delineate speciation.
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  4. #144
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Geez. Do you not understand chicken-and-egg? Where did these first moths come from? Evolutionary theory remains wildly incomplete until that can be answered.
    My understanding is that evolutionary theory, in the case of moths, would theorize that first there was a not-moth that could jump further due to wing-like things. It survived because it could avoid attackers better, and thus could pass on it's DNA.
    Slowly over thousands of generations, not-moths able to fly further survived and passed on their genes. Eventually something like what we call a moth was the result.

    The various species of moths are due to environmental adaptations, like camouflage and/or bright colors...
    Education.

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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Reading through this thread there are some arguments based in ignorance. One of the best explanations of evolution I have ever found is this:

    Amazon.com: The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution (9781416594796): Richard Dawkins: Books
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  6. #146
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    All I know is that every time a Twister takes out trailer park there's always a brand new shiney Boeing 737
    Listen. Creationists. We need to have a frank discussion about your tornado in a junkyard. Because you guys keep repeating it over and over and over again.

    Here's the problem: it's not an analogy that remotely resembles the actual process of evolution. The tornado in a junkyard is a scenario in which random pieces (molecules, perhaps) are randomly mixed to randomly create a fully-functional, incredibly complex aircraft (human being, or pick any animal really).

    But this isn't how evolution works. In fact, this analogy far better suits creationism: a scenario in which an incredibly complex living organism springs to life from a jumble of useless molecules. Or from nothing, whichever. A scenario so improbable that it requires the intervention of a supernatural being to become anything other than ludicrous. But, again, this isn't how evolution works. We need to fix your tornado scenario. So let's do that.

    In reality, chemistry is chemistry. Put two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom together, you get water. Doesn't require anything fancy, doesn't require any precision. It's chemistry. Mix a puddle of hydrogen with a puddle of oxygen and you'll get water. Yeah, not all of it mixes perfectly so you don't purely get water, but who cares. So, to fix our basic building blocks of the 737 to be more reflective of basic chemistry, your nuts, bolts, rivets, and wires have an affinity for each other. Screws that bonk into screw holes will stick to the hole and twist their way in. Rivets that contact metal skin will rivet in. Wires that contact, I don't know, capacitors, will link up. I'm not an electrician.

    Now, spin the tornado through this junkyard and you still don't get anything really useful. Do it a few times and you might get something that vaguely resembles a small section of one of the wings. (a flat piece of metal with some screws in reasonable places) Certainly not a working aircraft. But there's another missing piece here. See, the tornado is still a purely random force. Chaos, as you put it. But evolution is not purely random. It is driven by survival pressures. Small mutations that provide a benefit increase the likelihood of survival. In our junkyard terms, "being more like a 737" is a survival advantage. Any random jumble of parts that happens to more-closely resemble a 737 has to be selected for. So we'll give our junkyard pieces that trait: if pieces happen to collide in a way that matches the 737 blueprint, they stick together.

    We're still not getting a 737. Here and there, a piece of metal with some rivets that resemble something on the fuselage of a 737. Over there, some wires that randomly stuck together in a way similar to the Row 37 No Smoking Sign. Look over there on the other side of the junkyard, a roundish piece of rubber stuck to a roundish piece of metal so they look like part of a wheel. Not a plane. Not even close.

    There's a last piece of the puzzle. Evolution is a massively iterative process. Each generation passes on genes to the next, along with a few mutations because self-replication can never be perfect. We need to continue the advantageous genes (correctly-stuck part) on to the next generation. So those pieces stay together permanently. If those part clusters happen to strike another part, or another part structure, in the correct way, they are even more like a 737 than they were before. This is yet another advantageous mutation, it survives on to the next generation. Now we've got something. Spin the tornado through the junkyard a few hundred times, and you'll see clusters of parts that have grown much larger and much more complex. Over there, a fully-formed wheel. Back that way, we've got a working piece of avionics. Near the entrance, an aileron has latched itself onto a wing portion.

    In this more-correct analogy, the 737 is not only possible, but inevitable. Spin the tornado enough times, and you're definitely going to get a 737 eventually. It'll take quite a while, right? Well, the universe has been around a very, very, very long time and it is very, very, very big. It's not really just one junkyard, is it? We very, very, very roughly estimate the number of stars in the universe to be literally more numerous than the grains of sand on every beach on Earth. Septillions. And, if the Kepler mission is any indication, planets seem to be freaking everywhere. It's short mission taking a tiny look at the most miniscule fraction of the sky in our own galaxy (let alone the innumerable galaxies each with trillions of stars) has found hundreds of planets, thousands of planet candidates not yet confirmed. We have an uncountably large number of junkyards, each with tornadoes going for a long, long time.

    Of course, reality is more complex than this analogy. Not all mutations are beneficial, and outside factors exist that can threaten the existence of even the best-adapted life forms. Some of our junkyards are at the bottom of the volcano, useless. Everything resembling airplane parts just melts. On the other hand, we're not just working from one blueprint. Any blueprint is valid, as long as it survives its current environment and current competition. Evolution has no goal. Human beings, as much as we try to pretend otherwise, are not some pinnacle achievement found at the end of a long road. We're another branch on an infinitely-branching tree that has been growing and expanding for billions of years.

    But hey, this was your freaking analogy, not mine.
    Last edited by Deuce; 10-31-14 at 12:48 AM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  7. #147
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The point is, we don't have record of one species morphing into another species. Saying so is a deliberate lie.
    Where does evolution say on species morphs into another species? ???

  8. #148
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    Re: Pope says evolution, Big Bang are real

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Where does evolution say on species morphs into another species? ???
    He might be imagining that Michael Jackson video (I think it's the "It doesn't matter if you're black or white" one) a couple decades ago where one face is constantly morphing into another via cgi.

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