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Hillary Clinton slams trickle-down economics, 'business' doesn't create jobs?

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Deuce said:
I started reading your link and then it went with the circular logic libertarian thing so I stopped.
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It's old school.
 
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Crovax said:
I wonder if she thought she was creating jobs when she sat on the board of walmart
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No, just collecting a check.
 
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Fletch said:
How do you not recognize the self-defeating nature of your own post? Let me help you: Demand for WHAT products?
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Food, shelter, entertainment, etc.
 
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Fletch said:
How do you not recognize the self-defeating nature of your own post? Let me help you: Demand for WHAT products?
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So are you telling me, that food, housing and cloths are products created by corporations and not because people demanded it?

Like it or not trickle down economics has not and never will work. The only way to grow an economy is to improve the lives of the masses, not the 1%, and that means putting money in the hands of the majority who then create demand for products and services and that creates jobs. Giving Paris Hilton a few million dollars more creates no jobs..
 
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Deuce said:
Food, shelter, entertainment, etc.
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Of course there is a general demand for things like entertainment, but that isn't what creates a great song or a great painting or a great movie. Or a great product. Take my Xbox example. You didn't know you wanted one until they were manufactured. Which means someone had to hire people to develop, manufacture, distribute and advertise before a single Xbox was ever sold. Which means jobs preceded demand for the product.
 
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PeteEU said:
So are you telling me, that food, housing and cloths are products created by corporations and not because people demanded it?

Like it or not trickle down economics has not and never will work. The only way to grow an economy is to improve the lives of the masses, not the 1%, and that means putting money in the hands of the majority who then create demand for products and services and that creates jobs. Giving Paris Hilton a few million dollars more creates no jobs..
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See post #30
 
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Fletch said:
Of course there is a general demand for things like entertainment, but that isn't what creates a great song or a great painting or a great movie. Or a great product. Take my Xbox example. You didn't know you wanted one until they were manufactured. Which means someone had to hire people to develop, manufacture, distribute and advertise before a single Xbox was ever sold. Which means jobs preceded demand for the product.
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Your Xbox is not a new product. Demand for entertainment and games goes back to the freaking caveman. Before the Xbox there was Atari gaming consoles, and before that there was board games like Chess and Monopoly. All were "invented" due to a demand for games and entertainment.

Take the mobile phone.. the demand for communication any where at any time created this product ultimately. The demand for communicating faster between people lead to the telegraph and the telephone. Demand to be able to travel faster and further lead to the airplane. The list goes on and on. Very few products if any have been created and started a demand for said products.. even the computer you are writing on, originally was created to deal with a certain demand.
 
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Fletch said:
Of course there is a general demand for things like entertainment, but that isn't what creates a great song or a great painting or a great movie. Or a great product. Take my Xbox example. You didn't know you wanted one until they were manufactured. Which means someone had to hire people to develop, manufacture, distribute and advertise before a single Xbox was ever sold. Which means jobs preceded demand for the product.
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it was my demand for entertainment that caused it to be developed in the first place.
 
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PeteEU said:
Your Xbox is not a new product. Demand for entertainment and games goes back to the freaking caveman. Before the Xbox there was Atari gaming consoles, and before that there was board games like Chess and Monopoly. All were "invented" due to a demand for games and entertainment.

Take the mobile phone.. the demand for communication any where at any time created this product ultimately. The demand for communicating faster between people lead to the telegraph and the telephone. Demand to be able to travel faster and further lead to the airplane. The list goes on and on. Very few products if any have been created and started a demand for said products.. even the computer you are writing on, originally was created to deal with a certain demand.
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Deuce said:
it was my demand for entertainment that caused it to be developed in the first place.
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You guys aren't getting it for some reason. Your demand for entertainment didn't create anything. It is just an empty demand until I, or someone else, utilize my brain, hire people to develop a product, manufacture it and get it on the shelves. That requires capital, investment, and employees. Without me doing any of that, you guys are just two cavemen sitting around a fire barking demands to empty space.
 
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Fletch said:
You guys aren't getting it for some reason. Your demand for entertainment didn't create anything. It is just an empty demand until I, or someone else, utilize my brain, hire people to develop a product, manufacture it and get it on the shelves. That requires capital, investment, and employees. Without me doing any of that, you guys are just two cavemen sitting around a fire barking demands to empty space.
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Pet rocks would have made a mint back with the Neanderthals and Cro-mags. I plan on remembering that when I go back in time. :lol:
 
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Fletch said:
You guys aren't getting it for some reason. Your demand for entertainment didn't create anything. It is just an empty demand until I, or someone else, utilize my brain, hire people to develop a product, manufacture it and get it on the shelves. That requires capital, investment, and employees. Without me doing any of that, you guys are just two cavemen sitting around a fire barking demands to empty space.
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Actually it is you who dont get it. You seem to think that it is companies and their owners that create the demand that create the jobs. It aint. Ultimately it is the demand for something fundamental that is needed to spur someone to think of alternatives and hence create a product that will create more demand for said product. Okay lets take your Xbox as an example.

Ultimately the demand for entertainment has created many different forms of entertainment. We have opera, theater, books, stories and so on because of this demand and this includes the XBox. Yes it required a company like Microsoft to sit down and create the Xbox by hiring geeks and so on, but they would have not done that if there was no demand for entertainment and games. Now why did people want to demand something like the Xbox.. well because before the Xbox there was Nintendo, and before that Atari. Before home computer games there was things like billiards, chess and cards. All these things were created because there was demand for games and entertainment and someone invented them.

So again, you are the one who dont understand.. there would be no Xbox, PS4, and so on, if there was no demand for entertainment and games.
 
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PeteEU said:
Exactly, demand creates jobs.... companies would not employ anyone if there is no demand for their products... something that most right wingers seem to forget in their hatred towards economics 101 theory.
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You preach quasi Socialism for us here in America, meanwhile your own Denmark, along with the other Nordic states are moving away from it and doing better....

"The idea of lean Nordic government will come as a shock both to French leftists who dream of socialist Scandinavia and to American conservatives who fear that Barack Obama is bent on “Swedenisation”. They are out of date. In the 1970s and 1980s the Nordics were indeed tax-and-spend countries. Sweden’s public spending reached 67% of GDP in 1993. Astrid Lindgren, the inventor of Pippi Longstocking, was forced to pay more than 100% of her income in taxes. But tax-and-spend did not work: Sweden fell from being the fourth-richest country in the world in 1970 to the 14th in 1993.

Since then the Nordics have changed course—mainly to the right. Government’s share of GDP in Sweden, which has dropped by around 18 percentage points, is lower than France’s and could soon be lower than Britain’s. Taxes have been cut: the corporate rate is 22%, far lower than America’s. The Nordics have focused on balancing the books. While Mr Obama and Congress dither over entitlement reform, Sweden has reformed its pension system (see Free exchange). Its budget deficit is 0.3% of GDP; America’s is 7%.

On public services the Nordics have been similarly pragmatic. So long as public services work, they do not mind who provides them. Denmark and Norway allow private firms to run public hospitals. Sweden has a universal system of school vouchers, with private for-profit schools competing with public schools. Denmark also has vouchers—but ones that you can top up. When it comes to choice, Milton Friedman would be more at home in Stockholm than in Washington, DC."

The Nordic countries: The next supermodel | The Economist
 
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Fletch said:
You guys aren't getting it for some reason. Your demand for entertainment didn't create anything. It is just an empty demand until I, or someone else, utilize my brain, hire people to develop a product, manufacture it and get it on the shelves. That requires capital, investment, and employees. Without me doing any of that, you guys are just two cavemen sitting around a fire barking demands to empty space.
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Without me, there is no Xbox because there is no customer. Without that demand, there's no reason to supply anything. The Xbox can just as easily be a playstation or a tennis racket. The product is interchangeable, the demand is not.

And who really fills that demand?

Everyone. Everyone does. The business owner is not some special being floating above it all. They're another cog in the machine. The people in the fields growing tomatoes and raising cattle, the truck driver who delivers the fruit and meat, and the people who toss it on a grill and make a burger are all filling the demand.

You think without your efforts, I wouldn't be entertained? Nobody else could make an Xbox or a tennis racket? Laughable.
 
PeteEU said:
So are you telling me, that food, housing and cloths are products created by corporations and not because people demanded it?

Like it or not trickle down economics has not and never will work. The only way to grow an economy is to improve the lives of the masses, not the 1%, and that means putting money in the hands of the majority who then create demand for products and services and that creates jobs. Giving Paris Hilton a few million dollars more creates no jobs..
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It works when you incentivize private sector investment.

Not speculation and savings, which is what happens when Liberal economic principles like stimulus for the purpose of " increasing aggregate demand " are implemented.

And how would you know whether or not " trickle down " works or not ?

You clearly don't understand it.
 
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PeteEU said:
Actually it is you who dont get it. You seem to think that it is companies and their owners that create the demand that create the jobs. It aint. Ultimately it is the demand for something fundamental that is needed to spur someone to think of alternatives and hence create a product that will create more demand for said product. Okay lets take your Xbox as an example.

Ultimately the demand for entertainment has created many different forms of entertainment. We have opera, theater, books, stories and so on because of this demand and this includes the XBox. Yes it required a company like Microsoft to sit down and create the Xbox by hiring geeks and so on, but they would have not done that if there was no demand for entertainment and games. Now why did people want to demand something like the Xbox.. well because before the Xbox there was Nintendo, and before that Atari. Before home computer games there was things like billiards, chess and cards. All these things were created because there was demand for games and entertainment and someone invented them.

So again, you are the one who dont understand.. there would be no Xbox, PS4, and so on, if there was no demand for entertainment and games.
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Human need and human demand are just wants and tempter tantrums without someone willing to hire someone in an effort to profit from it. The wants and needs of humans are infinite, but those wants and needs don't create jobs and more than they create a means to fill those wants and needs.
 
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Deuce said:
Without me, there is no Xbox because there is no customer. Without that demand, there's no reason to supply anything. The Xbox can just as easily be a playstation or a tennis racket. The product is interchangeable, the demand is not.

And who really fills that demand?

Everyone. Everyone does. The business owner is not some special being floating above it all. They're another cog in the machine. The people in the fields growing tomatoes and raising cattle, the truck driver who delivers the fruit and meat, and the people who toss it on a grill and make a burger are all filling the demand.

You think without your efforts, I wouldn't be entertained? Nobody else could make an Xbox or a tennis racket? Laughable.
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Yet for thousands of years of human history, nobody did. Look, your undefined want for entertainment doesn't create crap and doesn't hire a single human being. It is the inventor and the producer that comes up with an idea that hires people to build and distribute it, that risks his capital that matters. You whims and wishes and wants are simply part of human nature. Without someone thinking, creating, producing and hiring, you are left entertaining yourself watching grass grow.
 
Oh and the Xbox would exist without you. Your contribution to the creation and production of that particular product is zero. The idea that you can claim some role in the creative and productive process by virtue of some innate desire is absurd, and more than likely just the result of some peculiar desire for relevance even if that relevance comes second hand.
 
I see merit in both sides of the demand/supply discussion. Of course there is demand for general things that exists before products are created. In the Xbox example, there is a demand for interactive electronic gaming. In essence, there is demand for a *better* "Playstation" or a better "Atari", so companies provide an answer for that demand. The first game console was created because there was a demand for simple-to-use, bug-free "computer games". Electronic games were created to fill a demand for gaming with a always-ready opponent. And so forth, on back. BUT...

The individual products are created by companies, and that does create demand for that *specific* product. Demand for iPhones vs. Android phones is a good example. Yes, both fulfill the general demand for smartphones, but people are able to infer enough difference in the two products that now, instead of just simply demanding a "smartphone", they quite vociferously demand an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy S-series phone, or something else. That specific demand is created by the companies when they give their products different specs from their competitors. That holds for *any* product except the most generic, and even milk and drinking water and table salt sometimes inspire brand loyalty.

-AJF
 
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Jetboogieman said:
Millionth time this thread has been posted.

Taken out of context and bad idea to pursue.

Same with "what difference does it make"

and "you didn't build that"

It'll blow up in your face, because you'll end up doing something stupid like hosting a Republican National convention under the auspices of "We built that" in a stadium built with public money...

I don't know who would do something that stupid...
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It's so out of context and wrong, that she's back pedaling faster than a circus clown. [emoji51]
 
Fletch said:
Oh and the Xbox would exist without you. Your contribution to the creation and production of that particular product is zero. The idea that you can claim some role in the creative and productive process by virtue of some innate desire is absurd, and more than likely just the result of some peculiar desire for relevance even if that relevance comes second hand.
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Yes, the interpretation that I personally and alone am responsible for the Xbox seems like a reasonable interpretation of that statement.

Since we're doing that game now, you seem to believe that if the human race went extinct except for Microsoft employees, they still would have invented the Xbox!
 
Fenton said:
It works when you incentivize private sector investment.

Not speculation and savings, which is what happens when Liberal economic principles like stimulus for the purpose of " increasing aggregate demand " are implemented.

And how would you know whether or not " trickle down " works or not ?

You clearly don't understand it.
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Just look at the American economy since 1980. The rich have gotten richer by considerable numbers where as the middle class and poor have relatively barely moved. This is a statistical fact. The idea of trickle down economics is that by making the rich more wealthy, then they would "trickle down" that wealth by investing the money and hiring more people.. they clearly have not and are not.
 
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Cardinal said:
I find the thread title unnecessarily incendiary.
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Of course you do....

Using your own ****ing brain is too difficult for you.
 
PeteEU said:
Just look at the American economy since 1980. The rich have gotten richer by considerable numbers where as the middle class and poor have relatively barely moved. This is a statistical fact. The idea of trickle down economics is that by making the rich more wealthy, then they would "trickle down" that wealth by investing the money and hiring more people.. they clearly have not and are not.
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Maybe the "poor" blow their money on useless **** instead of investing it?

Maybe you cant even quantize the rich and poor and you're just talking out of your ass?

What percentage of middle class individuals who started off poor are now rich?

Got those numbers?

Or do you just like to attempt to justify why you're poor?
 
PeteEU said:
Just look at the American economy since 1980. The rich have gotten richer by considerable numbers where as the middle class and poor have relatively barely moved. This is a statistical fact. The idea of trickle down economics is that by making the rich more wealthy, then they would "trickle down" that wealth by investing the money and hiring more people.. they clearly have not and are not.
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Ah yes, the hate Reagan meme, the time liberal/progressives have been taught the World entered the dark ages. What a load.

So let's turn to Europe where the social contract has had a long run. Gee, the EU is not looking so good. What happened? Big taxes, cradle to grave nanny state entitlements, protected jobs, etc., etc.. If this meme of yours worked, why are the economies stagnant? Why aren't all members of the EU not swimming in the glory of the socialist state?

Without the windmill of Reagan and the catch phrase "trickle down" I seriously doubt the truth could be as well hidden from the minions as long as it has been.
 
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