Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 59

Thread: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

  1. #41
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Last Seen
    12-04-17 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    12,361

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, so she'd understand a quarantine of someone with no symptoms serves no useful purpose, especially a medical professional who is completely familiar with the risks and symptoms. And she'd understand the quarantine is a huge barrier for U.S. based volunteers and others to travel to Africa to help contain this disease.
    I'm sure she undertands all of those things.

  2. #42
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,835

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    Your phrase "what you missed..." is obviously false.

    I clearly presented the hospital's major error in procedure.

    The quarantine would have required that he call ahead when symptoms developed and that, from the onset, he would have not only been treated for Ebola, avoiding the delay that cost him his life, but no healthcare workers would have been infected, logic concludes.

    Your statement "... which is checked himself into the hospital ..." is precisely what hospitals want to avoid now: walk-in Ebola patients "checking themselves in" to the ER to be treated by unsuspecting ER personnel prior to an Ebola diagnosis, contaminating them. Hospitals want anyone high-risk, like Duncan, suspected of having Ebola to call in first, to be then taken in by ambulance to a quarantine care unit of workers already in Ebola protective garb.
    I didn't communicate my point very well, which is we don't need a quarantine to solve the problem of Duncan, or of the returning healthcare workers.

    Second, as far as we now know, thousands of healthcare workers and others have returned to the U.S. with no quarantines in place and not a single member of the general public has gotten Ebola.

    Your premise that no other healthcare workers got sick after they donned protective gear simply does not logically lead to your conclusion that the risk to the general population is zero for the hedged "all practical purposes".

    The general population isn't wearing Ebola protective gear.
    First of all, I care about the fact that healthcare workers here, with the exception of the nurses in Texas, haven't gotten sick, but whether they have or not is not relevant to the quarantine question - if they get sick, those healthcare workers will take care of them whether they come in from their homes or enforced medical isolation in some room at the hospital.

    And if we're going to measure known risk to the public, then there has to be a numerator greater than zero, and so far there is no one in the general public to place in that numerator. The calculated risk is ZERO over however many people have traveled back from Africa after being in close contact with Ebola patients. And that result is consistent with the research which indicates that Ebola spreads only with contact with actual bodily fluids, and the risk of spread rises exponentially with the severity of the disease - zero until someone has a fever, very low in its early stages to very high with even minimal contact with a person about to die, or who has died, of the disease.

    That two workers who cared for Duncan prior to wearing protective gear contracted Ebola from him highlights that the general public is indeed at risk if they have direct contact with an Ebola patient and provide care, since the general public does not wear hospital protective gear.

    Poor enclaves in America are thus at greatest risk from this.
    Maybe you think I don't believe in monitoring those returning. Of course that's a good idea. I'm fine with some several people from CDC spending their workday calling returning workers etc. and getting temp readings, asking a few questions about how they feel, etc. That's WAY different than required 42 day (I assume) forced quarantines for everyone who comes in close contact with a patient in Africa. The options are not "quarantine or nothing."
    Last edited by JasperL; 10-27-14 at 04:04 PM.

  3. #43
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tennessee
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    21,835

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    I really don't think anyone is ignoring the downside to those being quarantined you mentioned.

    I believe they're simply accurately weighing both sides.
    That was a long post and I've said most of what I can say without repeating, so I'll just address that.

    I don't see any evidence people ARE weighing the downside.

    How many people will be affected by the quarantine? How many U.S. based people are in Africa now and how many travel each week or month to Africa to provide assistance?
    What is the loss in days of those people actually helping in Africa, where the help is most needed, to keep it isolated in Africa?
    What is the expected effect on those who will be discouraged from volunteering or otherwise traveling to Africa? How many days of assistance lost?
    What effect will that have on containing the Ebola epidemic in Africa, the front line of this outbreak?

    The people making the quarantine decision, and related travel bans, have this information and I'm sure HAVE weighed it. I've never seen even a nod to these questions on these forums, unless it's to dismiss them, as you did.

  4. #44
    Sage
    Fenton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,313

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by d0gbreath View Post
    Where do you get off calling those that care for the sick and the dying, idiots? That's going to send you south some day.


    Lol !!

  5. #45
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That was a long post and I've said most of what I can say without repeating, so I'll just address that.

    I don't see any evidence people ARE weighing the downside.

    How many people will be affected by the quarantine? How many U.S. based people are in Africa now and how many travel each week or month to Africa to provide assistance?
    What is the loss in days of those people actually helping in Africa, where the help is most needed, to keep it isolated in Africa?
    What is the expected effect on those who will be discouraged from volunteering or otherwise traveling to Africa? How many days of assistance lost?
    What effect will that have on containing the Ebola epidemic in Africa, the front line of this outbreak?

    The people making the quarantine decision, and related travel bans, have this information and I'm sure HAVE weighed it. I've never seen even a nod to these questions on these forums, unless it's to dismiss them, as you did.
    I "dismiss" them, as you say, only after I've weighed both sides.

    Clearly, and without question, we cannot have an infected person developing symptoms, as DR. Spencer did, roaming freely in the populace.

    That potential for starting an epidemic far outweighs the inconvenience to the returning healthcare worker.

    The irrational fear that people won't volunteer to intimately care for patients in West Africa because of a quarantine is simply that: irrational.

    They will simply add on to their good deed doing a quarantine when they return, which they will do happily, because they truly care about not only the physical well-being of their fellow countrymen, but their psychological well-being as well.

    The front line of Ebola work in West Africa is being performed by West Africans, not aliens.

    What they truly need from us would be money for adequate facilities and protective garb.

    We're sending soldiers to enforce quarantines, and guess what -- those soldiers are returning when they're done to do a quarantine themselves before mixing with the population again. That's the right thing to do.

    But we can do more. We can provide greatly needed materials.

    The epidemic would be stopped if every healthcare worker, whether professional or not, was properly attired.

    Clearly that's the lesson learned here.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  6. #46
    Guru

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    4,488

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    That potential for starting an epidemic far outweighs the inconvenience to the returning healthcare worker.
    This was more than an inconvenience. It was, as she put it, a violation of her civil and basic human rights. She was taken from the Airport, tossed into a tent where she was detained against against her will, was not permitted direct access to a lawyer, and was not told what would happen to her or when she would be released. Not to mention the fact that the way the quarantine was run was a bad joke. If she hadn't insisted on keeping her cellphone she would probably still be there instead of laying the medical smack down on Christie until she was released.

  7. #47
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I didn't communicate my point very well, which is we don't need a quarantine to solve the problem of Duncan, or of the returning healthcare workers.
    Regardless of whether you communicated your point very well or not, the fact remains that we most certainly do need a quarantine to solve the problem of those like Duncan.

    Quarantine keeps the rest of the populace physiologically and psychologically safe.

    And, should he develop symptoms it isolates the viral load escaping to one easily cleaned area.

    And, when he develops symptoms, the CDC comes and picks him up and takes him to the proper facility, and healthcare workers don't get contaminated as they would should he walk in to an ER.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Second, as far as we now know, thousands of healthcare workers and others have returned to the U.S. with no quarantines in place and not a single member of the general public has gotten Ebola.
    Your phrase "... thousands of healthcare workers and others have returned to the U.S. ..." is simply a made up number.

    You don't know how many people have returned.

    Many have not returned, and the number of volunteers, you don't know that number either.

    Quite a number have contracted Ebola there and too many have died. We do have stats for that.

    The fact that these people have contracted Ebola there means that anyone returning here before a 42-day quarantine places the population at physiological and psychological risk.

    Those healthcare workers returning before the job of stopping the epidemic is complete are likely those who believe they've been episodically contaminated and want the best care when they return.

    Likely, that's been a very small handful, and of that very small handful, it turned out they didn't have the disease .. all but one, so far, that is: Dr. Spencer being the exception .. and we'll see about Nurse Hickox.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    First of all, I care about the fact that healthcare workers here, with the exception of the nurses in Texas, haven't gotten sick, but whether they have or not is not relevant to the quarantine question - if they get sick, those healthcare workers will take care of them whether they come in from their homes or enforced medical isolation in some room at the hospital.
    Meaningless.

    What's important is that quarantine keeps healthcare workers safe from walk-in exposure, the kind of walk-in exposure that actually did cause the two healthcare workers in Dallas to become infected.

    Quarantine prevents walk-ins, and it's the only procedure that does, as monitoring does not require the person to stay in one place and thus it simply does not protect the physiological and psychological health of the nation at large.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And if we're going to measure known risk to the public, then there has to be a numerator greater than zero, and so far there is no one in the general public to place in that numerator. The calculated risk is ZERO over however many people have traveled back from Africa after being in close contact with Ebola patients. And that result is consistent with the research which indicates that Ebola spreads only with contact with actual bodily fluids, and the risk of spread rises exponentially with the severity of the disease - zero until someone has a fever, very low in its early stages to very high with even minimal contact with a person about to die, or who has died, of the disease.
    The cameraman who contracted Ebola in West Africa had no direct or close contact with those who were being cared for.

    He could have only gotten the disease from someone with whom he came in closer contact with who was pre-symptomatic, who was in the last 24 hours prior to experiencing the onset of symptoms.

    There is every evidence that body fluids containing virion can then spread via moisture droplets in the air.

    Duncan, Spencer, and the two Texas nurses, that's only four, are the only people so far in America who are known to have roamed freely while incubating and during the last 24-hours prior to symptoms.

    Duncan isolated himself in his apartment away from his other family members, and he took only one trip: to the hospital .. where he contaminated the two nurses.

    The two Texas nurses, their 21-day quarantine of people they contacted is still ongoing.

    For Spencer, his has just begun, and his fiancee, among others, is in understandable quarantine.

    Let's give it more time .. and hope no one else comes down with Ebola from contact with these four.

    In the meantime, we need to learn our lessons about keeping the American people physiologically and psychologically safe: implement quarantines of high-risk people.

    Had that been done with Duncan, a number of people more would not now be at risk and enduring quarantines.

    That the two nurses are among the "no one has yet died of the disease" is only because they had the ultimate in healthcare.

    People in poor enclaves in America won't have access to the ultimate .. and, like Duncan, their mortality rate will be deadly high.

    Better extra-careful quarantine safe than deadly poverty-area epidemic sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    those returning. Of course that's a good idea. I'm fine with some several people from CDC spending their workday calling returning workers etc. and getting temp readings, asking a few questions about how they feel, etc. That's WAY different than required 42 day (I assume) forced quarantines for everyone who comes in close contact with a patient in Africa. The options are not "quarantine or nothing."
    The intelligent options are quarantine .. and that's all.

    The psychological denial that one has Ebola and will thus not report accurate temperatures, or that they'll erroneously think they're not yet "that" symptomatic and will run that "last" errand or attend that important board meeting before they're "too sick to do anything else", arrogant doctors with zero bed-side manner thinking typically playing God thinking "it doesn't matter if I infect someone, we've got sufficient healthcare here in America to get them to recover" ..

    .. No, monitoring requires way too much reliance on the very psyche that will deny they have such a dreaded disease, and in the case of doctors and nurses, denial that if others catch it from them it will be hell for those so suffering even if our super healthcare abilities make them well again.

    Quarantining of high-risk people takes their own psyche out of the decision process of when they're beginning to show symptoms and whether they're then contagious, so that they don't make erroneous and potentially fatal to others decisions about whether they can then move about the populace first.

    There's a really good reason why quarantine exists: it's irrational to trust the person themselves to do the right thing under the circumstances .. as that nurse Hickox has demonstrated .. and as that doctor Spencer has illustrated.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  8. #48
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    This was more than an inconvenience. It was, as she put it, a violation of her civil and basic human rights. She was taken from the Airport, tossed into a tent where she was detained against against her will, was not permitted direct access to a lawyer, and was not told what would happen to her or when she would be released. Not to mention the fact that the way the quarantine was run was a bad joke. If she hadn't insisted on keeping her cellphone she would probably still be there instead of laying the medical smack down on Christie until she was released.
    You simply do not present the facts.

    Nurse Hickox exaggerated, as has been made evidently clear, for the purpose of not having to endure quarantine.

    She was not "tossed" into a tent as you too exaggerate. The quarantine was not run like "a bad joke".

    I do not understand why liberals continue to make this a political issue.

    Of course she was detained against her will -- that's what a quarantine often is. She wanted to roam freely in the populace like Dr. Spencer, not at all caring who she might infect when 24 hours prior to experiencing definite symptoms she comes in contact with others.

    When it comes to "how she puts it" that it was "a violation of her civil and basic human rights", you both exaggerate and, of course, falsely.

    Quarantines exist to protect the public, and they are not a violation of anyone's rights.

    She was not not permitted phone contact with anyone, including a lawyer, obviously.

    Your statements about what happened are egregiously false.

    I know that some conservatives are hyping the other side of this up, and that liberals are hyping the opposite side up as you are doing.

    It doesn't serve anyone that you both do that .. and, it really really harms the great majority of Americans who, like in the "Global Warming" flap, don't know who to believe.

    It's precisely that lack of trust by the great majority of Americans that increases the chances of panic.

    Get the facts first .. and even then, show a modicum of restraint.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

  9. #49
    Global Moderator
    Rage More!
    Your Star's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    26,362

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    She's a selfish individual and thankfully her complaining us falling on deaf ears for the most part.

    I don't feel sorry for her one bit.
    She is a mother****ing hero. She risked her life to go over there and help people, and to do a hero's work. Calling her selfish is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
    Eat me, drink me, love me;
    Laura make much of me

  10. #50
    Sage
    Ontologuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    5,516

    Re: UTA grad isolated at New Jersey hospital as part of Ebola quarantine

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    She is a mother****ing hero. She risked her life to go over there and help people, and to do a hero's work. Calling her selfish is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
    No matter how great her humanitarian work was, that does not entitle her to special treatment that increases the very real risk of contaminating others.

    We learned our lesson with Dr. Spencer.

    Quarantining her was the right thing to do by all Americans, including herself if she thought about it for a minute.

    Here's the whole truth: http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...uarantine.html.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •