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Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

Unrepresented said:
If we're arguing facts, background isn't relevant, nor is personal experience a trump card since it's mostly limited to anecdotal evidence. I could just as easily argue that my experience with unions exceeds yours but that doesn't promote discussion, which is why ultimately here.
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In order to argue facts you have to understand the financial statement of a business, the costs of running a business, the affect labor has on the business, the union influence, and your competition. You have no concept of any of those items.
 
Conservative said:
In order to argue facts you have to understand the financial statement of a business, the costs of running a business, the affect labor has on the business, the union influence, and your competition. You have no concept of any of those items.
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If condescending attitudes were facts, you'd have this mopped up by now.
 
Unrepresented said:
If condescending attitudes were facts, you'd have this mopped up by now.
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If you truly had the facts on your side, union membership wouldn't be so low, Obama would have a higher Job approval rating, and California wouldn't be losing jobs to the rest of the nation.
 
ocean515 said:
:doh

California was once ranked 5th, it's slipped to 9th. But then again, your answer, and lack of it, wasn't unexpected. The attitude you've developed represents part of the problem, and the middle class suffers as a result.
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That has more to do with the ascension of BRIC nations than failures with California.
 
Unrepresented said:
It doesn't favor middle class wallets when undercutting is permitted, dropping the standards for everyone.
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Look what unions did to the middle class wallets in California that were eagerly awaiting new jobs in their local economy. They sabotaged the people they claim to be helping.

As for "undercutting," undercutting is how competition happens, and competition is the antidote for monopoly. It's what prevents monopolistic pricing. Unions need monopolistic privileges granted to them by governments and enjoy monopolistic privileges because laws passed by politicians they installed give them that protection. This is how cartels gain power. They need the government's help protecting them from competition that any healthy market and vibrant economy requires. Cartels, like any other monopoly, cannot survive in competitive environments. And conversely economies cannot thrive when markets are held hostage by cartels and monopolies and governments that cater to them.
 
Unrepresented said:
That has more to do with the ascension of BRIC nations than failures with California.
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California also has the highest poverty rate in the country. Unions haven't helped the citizens in California much.
 
Unrepresented said:
That has more to do with the ascension of BRIC nations than failures with California.
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Yes, I am familiar with this cop out used by people trying to hide from the obvious. The elephant in the room crushing this rather laughable excuse goes back to California's one time position as the economic leader of the nation. It used to be first to recover from economic down turns, and last to feel them. Today, it continues to hover at or near the top in unemployment, ranks as home to the highest poverty in the country, and you saw where it ranks in all the measures I posted previously. It's interesting that the BRIC nations actually grew by incorporating the very economic principles that once formed the backbone of California's approach to opportunity and growth. That no longer exists here.

What is sad is that there are those union apologists who chose to ignore the massive job loss in manufacturing and other industries in California as a result of actions taken by a state legislature beholden to the unions who bought them, while demanding business pay for more and more of the agenda that is crushing them.
 
Gill said:
California also has the highest poverty rate in the country. Unions haven't helped the citizens in California much.
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ocean515 said:
Yes, I am familiar with this cop out used by people trying to hide from the obvious. The elephant in the room crushing this rather laughable excuse goes back to California's one time position as the economic leader of the nation. It used to be first to recover from economic down turns, and last to feel them. Today, it continues to hover at or near the top in unemployment, ranks as home to the highest poverty in the country, and you saw where it ranks in all the measures I posted previously. It's interesting that the BRIC nations actually grew by incorporating the very economic principles that once formed the backbone of California's approach to opportunity and growth. That no longer exists here.

What is sad is that there are those union apologists who chose to ignore the massive job loss in manufacturing and other industries in California as a result of actions taken by a state legislature beholden to the unions who bought them, while demanding business pay for more and more of the agenda that is crushing them.
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1) California's poverty rate can be determined through a number of different calculations. Some are more flattering than others. The one you're referencing primarily increases our poverty rank through our insane cost of housing, which I'll absolutely agree is unsustainable and needs correction.

2) Unions are only as strong as the people that support them, and are dependent on unity to succeed. The greater they're undermined the less they can provide to their members. That can be accomplished through competition with non union workers locally, interstate, or internationally. Domestic unions only have so much power to prevent being beaten by lower paid workers in nations such as BRIC or even the RTW states. This isn't a design flaw, it's a reality that organizations are only as powerful as their roster and resources.
 
Unrepresented said:
1) California's poverty rate can be determined through a number of different calculations. Some are more flattering than others. The one you're referencing primarily increases our poverty rank through our insane cost of housing, which I'll absolutely agree is unsustainable and needs correction.

2) Unions are only as strong as the people that support them, and are dependent on unity to succeed. The greater they're undermined the less they can provide to their members. That can be accomplished through competition with non union workers locally, interstate, or internationally. Domestic unions only have so much power to prevent being beaten by lower paid workers in nations such as BRIC or even the RTW states. This isn't a design flaw, it's a reality that organizations are only as powerful as their roster and resources.
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When you get out of school and get your first job, be sure to join a union then come back to us in a few years and tell us how much you enjoyed that union membership.
 
Conservative said:
If you truly had the facts on your side, union membership wouldn't be so low, Obama would have a higher Job approval rating, and California wouldn't be losing jobs to the rest of the nation.
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You're giving the market far too much credit if you're claiming it is capable of being an arbiter of truth.
 
Unrepresented said:
You're giving the market far too much credit if you're claiming it is capable of being an arbiter of truth.
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Since you never have been in a union and probably never held a job I won't be giving you any credit for your posts other than saying you are out of touch with reality and have no concept as to the harm unions have done to the economy and the business world in general. California just lost jobs due to unions so how many more companies have to pull out of California before you start questioning your own beliefs in unions?
 
Conservative said:
Since you never have been in a union and probably never held a job I won't be giving you any credit for your posts other than saying you are out of touch with reality and have no concept as to the harm unions have done to the economy and the business world in general. California just lost jobs due to unions so how many more companies have to pull out of California before you start questioning your own beliefs in unions?
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I have not given any information on my employment history on this forum. Your statements about them are meritless.
 
Unrepresented said:
1) California's poverty rate can be determined through a number of different calculations. Some are more flattering than others. The one you're referencing primarily increases our poverty rank through our insane cost of housing, which I'll absolutely agree is unsustainable and needs correction.

2) Unions are only as strong as the people that support them, and are dependent on unity to succeed. The greater they're undermined the less they can provide to their members. That can be accomplished through competition with non union workers locally, interstate, or internationally. Domestic unions only have so much power to prevent being beaten by lower paid workers in nations such as BRIC or even the RTW states. This isn't a design flaw, it's a reality that organizations are only as powerful as their roster and resources.
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California's poverty rate is determined by one common denominator used by the Census Bureau, not a number of different calculations. It takes into account far more than housing. Sorry but California's ranking is what it is. Unions and liberal/progressive legislators own that result.

Unions are only as strong today as the industries they haven't damaged enough to be inconsequential in the US. As you have shown by sidestepping the issue of compensation as it relates to all the other pressures facing business today, it's obvious there is little interest in the long term health of a business, and the only focus is on the short term greed of union members and their negotiators at the bargaining table. There should be little wonder why this disconnect has caused such harm to private sector union membership, and why union tactics are driving cites bankrupt in the public sector.
 
Unrepresented said:
1) California's poverty rate can be determined through a number of different calculations. Some are more flattering than others. The one you're referencing primarily increases our poverty rank through our insane cost of housing, which I'll absolutely agree is unsustainable and needs correction.
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Feel free to use whichever calculation gives you the numbers you are hoping for. I'll continue to use the U.S. Census Bureau that ranks California dead last.
 
ocean515 said:
California's poverty rate is determined by one common denominator used by the Census Bureau, not a number of different calculations. It takes into account far more than housing. Sorry but California's ranking is what it is. Unions and liberal/progressive legislators own that result.

Unions are only as strong today as the industries they haven't damaged enough to be inconsequential in the US. As you have shown by sidestepping the issue of compensation as it relates to all the other pressures facing business today, it's obvious there is little interest in the long term health of a business, and the only focus is on the short term greed of union members and their negotiators at the bargaining table. There should be little wonder why this disconnect has caused such harm to private sector union membership, and why union tactics are driving cites bankrupt in the public sector.
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Gill said:
Feel free to use whichever calculation gives you the numbers you are hoping for. I'll continue to use the U.S. Census Bureau that ranks California dead last.
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate

You're going by supplemental poverty rates when you're claiming California is dead last. As I said that's one method of calculating. Using more traditional methods California is currently 35th.
 
Unrepresented said:
List of U.S. states by poverty rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're going by supplemental poverty rates when you're claiming California is dead last. As I said that's one method of calculating. Using more traditional methods California is currently 35th.
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LOL.

Using the more accurate method used today all across the country by the United States Census Bureau, California has the highest poverty in the nation. Sorry, no spin is going to change that.
 
Gill said:
Does your teacher let you use Wiki as a source?? I thought most schools had banned it. It's very unreliable and biased.

You use Wiki, I'll go with the U.S. Census Bureau.
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I'm not writing a formal essay, I'm doing you the service of providing you with additional information related to your claim. The source provided a convenient method of comparing various measures of determining poverty level. You can debate the veracity of a wikipedia link (which included your figure), but that seems kinda lame.
 
Conservative said:
Union demands send Japanese firm, jobs packing from California town | Fox News

Just another example of why California is one of the most unfriendly states to business in the country. California continues to prevent companies from creating jobs and having employees paying taxes which is why California is losing businesses and has among the highest unemployment rates in the nation.
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Well first; there is no International Brotherhood of Workers as the report states. There is the IBEW. And organizing is not a union demand. So there;s something really wrong with this article.
 
jet57 said:
Well first; there is no International Brotherhood of Workers as the report states. There is the IBEW. And organizing is not a union demand. So there;s something really wrong with this article.
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So then the company did decide to stay in California and create jobs there for Californians? Apparently the article doesn't tell you what you want to hear therefore there is something wrong with it??
 
Conservative said:
So then the company did decide to stay in California and create jobs there for Californians? Apparently the article doesn't tell you what you want to hear therefore there is something wrong with it??
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Uh, the article makes a false statement anad decries that there is some sort of demond behind it where none exists. So yeah, the article is wrong.
 
jet57 said:
Uh, the article makes a false statement anad decries that there is some sort of demond behind it where none exists. So yeah, the article is wrong.
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If a typo leaving out one word is such a big deal to you, here's another article:

Los Angeles government and business leaders held a press conference Monday to condemn a local labor union on Monday, accusing the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers of killing a deal to bring a manufacturing plant to Palmdale.

...

The union and Kinkisharyo disagreed about the way workers could unionize in the future when the plant was built. The union wanted the company to agree to a "card check" method, where employees would sign a card saying they wanted to join the union. The company wanted to hold an election, which it has a right to by law.

Later, a law firm connected with the electrical workers' union filed legal challenges against Kinkisharyo under California’s Environmental Quality Act.

“The developers that come into our city have to be accountable for what they do," said Tommy Faavae, an organizer with the electrical workers' union. "They can’t just you know, be a bully in our community and think they can build a project without going through the right process.”
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Palmdale, county officials blast union in fight over manufacturing plant in Palmdale | 89.3 KPCC
 
another example of we only hire slaves...............if your not a slave, then we will not hire you.

It is the LAW.

National Labor Relations Act
 
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jet57 said:
Uh, the article makes a false statement anad decries that there is some sort of demond behind it where none exists. So yeah, the article is wrong.
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Great, glad to hear that the company is indeed staying and providing jobs for Californians, the state needs to stop the bleeding of jobs from that state. Good for them.
 
Conservative said:
Great, glad to hear that the company is indeed staying and providing jobs for Californians, the state needs to stop the bleeding of jobs from that state. Good for them.
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I think the point being made was that the amateur level spin on the story blaming unions was in keeping with the amateur level fact checking.
 
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