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Thread: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

  1. #321
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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    The statistics suggest otherwise:

    I'll reserve comment until you get that working.

    Capitalism is built on artificial constrictions of supply.
    No it's not "built on it." Left wingers always say stuff like this, they find some negative, illegal or undesirable behavior and then claim capitalism is "built on" the despicable thing. It's built on people trading freely with one another to make themselves better off. Now that's not to say a restricted supply isn't desirable for the entity that deals in it, it's completely natural that some sellers of something would seek to rig the system to restrict it for their own profit, but that is where the government is supposed to step in and forbid such anti-competitive behavior. It's why we have anti-trust laws, and it's why any economist, left wing or right wing, will acknowledge that collusion to cut off supply and undermine competitive bidding in the market must be regulated and stopped by government. That is a legitimate governmental function.

    But instead of government stepping in and saying "this is a cartel, and is anticompetitive, and it's forbidden by our laws," you compete in the market like everyone else, we don't tolerate market-hindering collusion and cartel schemes, instead of doing that, the government officially sanctions these cartels and enables them. Some in legislative positions think this practice should end, but they face major battles getting that through because unions spend an insane amount of money installing political leaders to protect their cartel. It is corrupt to the bone, but they work hard to keep their cause noble-sounding.

    This is not something unions have invented or are the only ones to utilize, it's the fundamental aspect of capitalism.
    Negative behaviors that screw others over are natural, predictable flaws in humans. It's not unique to capitalism. It's a human characteristic. People don't suddenly all become perfect beings under socialist or communist regimes. People want to make themselves better off and will in some cases resort to schemes that are unfair, harmful, and are therefore made illegal. Cartels should all be illegal. So should monopolies. Labor cartels (unions) are a special exception that are not illegal, but they should be, or at least the anti-competitive tactics they use to protect their members and screw over outsiders.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 11-01-14 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I'll reserve comment until you get that working.
    Image is showing for me. It's basically another graphic showing the disconnect between worker pay over the last few decades v. executive pay.

    (hint: workers don't do nearly as well).
    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    No it's not "built on it." Left wingers always say stuff like this, they find some negative, illegal or undesirable behavior and then claim capitalism is "built on" the despicable thing. It's built on people trading freely with one another to make themselves better off. Now that's not to say a restricted supply isn't desirable for the entity that deals in it, it's completely natural that some sellers of something would seek to rig the system to restrict it for their own profit, but that is where the government is supposed to step in and forbid such anti-competitive behavior. It's why we have anti-trust laws, and it's why any economist, left wing or right wing, will acknowledge that collusion to cut off supply and undermine competitive bidding in the market must be regulated and stopped by government. That is a legitimate governmental function.

    But instead of government stepping in and saying "this is a cartel, and is anticompetitive, and it's forbidden by our laws," you compete in the market like everyone else, we don't tolerate market-hindering collusion and cartel schemes, instead of doing that, the government officially sanctions these cartels and enables them. Some in legislative positions think this practice should end, but they face major battles getting that through because unions spend an insane amount of money installing political leaders to protect their cartel. It is corrupt to the bone, but they work hard to keep their cause noble-sounding.



    Negative behaviors that screw others over are natural, predictable flaws in humans. It's not unique to capitalism. It's a human characteristic. People don't suddenly all become perfect beings under socialist or communist regimes. People want to make themselves better off and will in some cases resort to schemes that are unfair, harmful, and are therefore made illegal. Cartels should all be illegal. So should monopolies. Labor cartels (unions) are a special exception that are not illegal, but they should be.
    Governments support anti-competitive behavior though. Patent law is anti-competitive behavior sanctioned by the government. "Natural monopolies" are anti-competitive behavior sanctioned by the government. Etc.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    You're displaying a fundamental misunderstanding here. Union management is paid for by the members of the unions. That cost is not directly paid for by the company. It costs those of us with stocks nothing. As stockholders, CEO pay costs us infinitely more than union leader pay.
    Dude your union leaders make boat loads more than you. On average ten time and they live better than you, and your bitching about somebody actually busting hump selling the company to bring in the moola. What exactly do you get for the money you pay those punks? Job security? Better pay? Huh? What do you get for all the money you put out? Do you even bother to figure out if you make more money with them after their "service fee" or less than someone in a nonunion company in a comparable position?

    Here's a little known fact about CEO's and why they make so damn much. Because good one are worth their weight in gold literally. They are very much like good salesmen. Damn near indispensable. Any old person just cant walk into a CEO position and run a company well and profitable. That's why people are willing to pay so much. Its also the reason people pay so much for baseball, football, and basketball players. The big names bring home the bacon. A rising tide lifts all boats.
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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Dude your union leaders make boat loads more than you. On average ten time and they live better than you, and your bitching about somebody actually busting hump selling the company to bring in the moola. What exactly do you get for the money you pay those punks? Job security? Better pay? Huh? What do you get for all the money you put out? Do you even bother to figure out if you make more money with them after their "service fee" or less than someone in a nonunion company in a comparable position?

    Here's a little known fact about CEO's and why they make so damn much. Because good one are worth their weight in gold literally. They are very much like good salesmen. Damn near indispensable. Any old person just cant walk into a CEO position and run a company well and profitable. That's why people are willing to pay so much. Its also the reason people pay so much for baseball, football, and basketball players. The big names bring home the bacon. A rising tide lifts all boats.
    A) I believe that wage disparity should be addressed for everyone, including union leaders.

    B) The wages paid allowed them to make this helpful graphic, which shows that even if they're earning 10 times my income, that's significantly smaller than the disparity of CEOs.


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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Image is showing for me. It's basically another graphic showing the disconnect between worker pay over the last few decades v. executive pay.

    (hint: workers don't do nearly as well).
    Nor have they ever. American consumers continue rewarding companies that cut costs. American consumers don't want more expensive alternatives. They want less expensive alternatives. The rest is history. We'd have had to close our doors, close off trade, go protectionist, to avoid that. It is very difficult to argue we'd have higher living standards if we had done that.

    Governments support anti-competitive behavior though. Patent law is anti-competitive behavior sanctioned by the government. "Natural monopolies" are anti-competitive behavior sanctioned by the government. Etc.
    I'm not defending those other things (they're for another discussion), and nor does this observation justify the tactics of labor cartels.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Nor have they ever. American consumers continue rewarding companies that cut costs. American consumers don't want more expensive alternatives. They want less expensive alternatives. The rest is history. We'd have had to close our doors, close off trade, go protectionist, to avoid that. It is very difficult to argue we'd have higher living standards if we had done that.
    While there was never parity between workers and corporate, the graphics I've included in this thread show that the disparity is growing. Significantly.

    If people want lower costs, cut CEO pay. It's up ~700% over the last few decades according to the graphic I included while worker pay is only up 5%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I'm not defending those other things (they're for another discussion), and nor does this observation justify the tactics of labor cartels.
    You're attacking unions for doing the same thing as every other business in America.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    B) The wages paid allowed them to make this helpful graphic, which shows that even if they're earning 10 times my income, that's significantly smaller than the disparity of CEOs.

    For one thing, having the title of "CEO" does not result in pay disparities like that. The dramatic pay disparities are found only at the largest corporations. And among those, the primary reason there can even be that sort of disparity is because of equity forms of compensation. Ordinary employees are typically not compensated in equity and, if they were, all we'd hear about were the ones that closed, because when they close, workers not only lose their jobs, but their stock in the company is worthless. So that's unacceptable, but it becomes evident that people essentially wish for the upside potential of equity but don't want to accept the risk involved.

    Equity compensation is an interesting way to examine compensation in large corporations, but the largest corporations and executive salaries are the extremes, which make for poor examples on which to base labor policy.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    For one thing, having the title of "CEO" does not result in pay disparities like that. The dramatic pay disparities are found only at the largest corporations. And among those, the primary reason there can even be that sort of disparity is because of equity forms of compensation. Ordinary employees are typically not compensated in equity and, if they were, all we'd hear about were the ones that closed, because when they close, workers not only lose their jobs, but their stock in the company is worthless. So that's unacceptable, but it becomes evident that people essentially wish for the upside potential of equity but don't want to accept the risk involved.

    Equity compensation is an interesting way to examine compensation in large corporations, but the largest corporations and executive salaries are the extremes, which make for poor examples on which to base labor policy.
    But you're happy to bash the "extreme" salaries on the extreme end of union leader compensation?

    Further, the fact that these CEO's are paid in stocks is largely for tax reasons.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Great, glad to hear that the company is indeed staying and providing jobs for Californians, the state needs to stop the bleeding of jobs from that state. Good for them.
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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    A) I believe that wage disparity should be addressed for everyone, including union leaders.

    B) The wages paid allowed them to make this helpful graphic, which shows that even if they're earning 10 times my income, that's significantly smaller than the disparity of CEOs.

    The point is your wages as joe shmo worker represent in relative terms what you make the company based on the value of your work output. The value of a CEO's is worth a hell of a lot more. They make or break companies. Joe shmo. Not so much.

    The AFL CIO president RICHARD TRUMKA makes $298,542, The VP makes $368,652. The average wage of an AFL CIO union staff is $77,000. The average member of that union makes $17 an hour. That's $34,000 a year. It seems to me maybe the union members ought work for the union. They make more than them.

    I take it you believe everyone should be paid equally regardless of output?
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    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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