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Thread: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Rising union wages increase the wages for non union jobs in order for those employers to maintain competitive in the, inverse of the way that non union states decrease the wages of union states.
    And the businesses pack up and move to those lower cost states, because consumers generally demand lower prices. Your notion of how competition works is backwards.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Declining union membership has much to do with anti union legislation and follows a vicious cycle of decreasing influence and resources which causes it to have decreasing influence and resources. It's being starved by corporate friendly politicians and an ignorant public who had been misled into believing their best interests lie with the rich rather than those who actually represent them.
    Right, it always someone else's fault for personal choices made? When will you ever take responsibility for the failures of unions and liberalism? Personal choice only seems to matter when the choice is for an issue of interest to you.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    And the businesses pack up and move to those lower cost states, because consumers generally demand lower prices. Your notion of how competition works is backwards.
    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower pay for executives.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower profit margins.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased advertizing expenditures.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased lobbying expenses.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Why is cutting the cost of labor the first and only right means of maintaining low prices? Why should American workers be the first to take a financial hit to maintain low prices?
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Right, it always someone else's fault for personal choices made? When will you ever take responsibility for the failures of unions and liberalism? Personal choice only seems to matter when the choice is for an issue of interest to you.
    There is an imbalance in the choices. That's the issue. If we provide an incentive for businesses to undermine worker pay, benefits, and safety, business will. That's a choice that's being dictated by bad policy which supports anti-union states.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower pay for executives.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower profit margins.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased advertizing expenditures.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased lobbying expenses.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Why is cutting the cost of labor the first and only right means of maintaining low prices? Why should American workers be the first to take a financial hit to maintain low prices?

    There is an imbalance in the choices. That's the issue. If we provide an incentive for businesses to undermine worker pay, benefits, and safety, business will. That's a choice that's being dictated by bad policy which supports anti-union states.
    Wonder why it is that big labor supporters aren't demanding that their leadership take cuts in salary? Hmmmm

    Union bosses' salaries put 'big' in Big Labor - Washington Times

    There are the facts that people like you want to ignore. The question is why does rhetoric trump actual results?

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower pay for executives.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding lower profit margins.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased advertizing expenditures.

    They can demand lower prices by demanding decreased lobbying expenses.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Why is cutting the cost of labor the first and only right means of maintaining low prices? Why should American workers be the first to take a financial hit to maintain low prices?
    It isn't, and they aren't. Companies competing aggressively on cost seek to minimize all those input costs. It has never been the "first and only" cost that those who must compete on cost try to contain. They try to contain them all.

    There is an imbalance in the choices. That's the issue. If we provide an incentive for businesses to undermine worker pay, benefits, and safety, business will. That's a choice that's being dictated by bad policy which supports anti-union states.
    Businesses aren't the ones undermining pay and benefits. Other workers, those who are unemployed or underemployed, undermine worker pay and benefits, because the workers want to compete with those higher paid workers, by offering better service and/or offering it for cheaper. That is how all sellers compete. "I can offer something better and/or cheaper." Those who are down on their luck, struggling to make ends meet? They need to be able to compete. If it were up to unions, they wouldn't be allowed, unless they paid the union for the privilege. The enemy of unions are non-member workers, poorer workers, less fortunate and unemployed workers. Workers who want to compete with their inflated wages and benefits by offering something better and for cheaper. Workers who are good at what they do but do not want to be in a union. That is what unions are paid to do, is stamp those people out. Bar them from entry. Make it impossible for them to threaten their cushy jobs. Keep the outsiders pounding pavement, keep them unemployed, prevent them from bettering themselves, let them toil. This is all done so that the union members don't have to compete with these other workers.

    All cartels do this. They manipulate the legal system to artificially constrict the supply of something (that is or would be in fact abundant) so that they can drive up its price. That is the fundamental mechanism by which all cartels operate, and that's why all economists that analyze labor unions recognize them as cartels and label them as such. Cartels are bad for everyone except (for the time being) those within their own privileged ranks. They make everyone else worse off. More for us, less for you. They are the actual embodiment of the very caricature they claim to be fighting against (the greedy business magnate).
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 11-01-14 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wonder why it is that big labor supporters aren't demanding that their leadership take cuts in salary? Hmmmm

    Union bosses' salaries put 'big' in Big Labor - Washington Times

    There are the facts that people like you want to ignore. The question is why does rhetoric trump actual results?
    They're likely overpaid. But them earning a six figure income annually isn't nearly as expensive as the seven and eight figure salaries that the CEO's make. It's all relative.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    They're likely overpaid. But them earning a six figure income annually isn't nearly as expensive as the seven and eight figure salaries that the CEO's make. It's all relative.
    You have no idea what you are talking about, have never seen a business financial statement, have no idea the costs associated with starting a business yet you are an expert on how businesses operate? Please tell me why a union executive should make a six figure salary and what they do to earn that salary? What benefit do they provide to the common investor in the company they supposedly represent? Do your parents have stock in any company? Wonder how they feel about union management receiving all that money and generating nothing to them for their investment? Who do you think pays for the salaries of union management??

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It isn't, and they aren't. Companies competing aggressively on cost seek to minimize all those input costs. It has never been the "first and only" cost that those who must compete on cost try to contain. They try to contain them all.
    The statistics suggest otherwise:



    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Businesses aren't the ones undermining pay and benefits. Other workers, those who are unemployed or underemployed, undermine worker pay and benefits, because the workers want to compete with those higher paid workers, by offering better service and/or offering it for cheaper. Your enemy (the unions') enemy, are non-member workers, poorer workers, less fortunate and unemployed workers. Workers who want to compete with their inflated wages and benefits by offering something better and for cheaper. That is what unions are paid to do, is stamp them out. Keep those outsiders pounding pavement, keep them unemployed, prevent them from bettering themselves. This is all done so that the union members don't have to compete with others.

    All cartels do this. They manipulate the legal system to artificially constrict the supply of something (that is or would be in fact abundant) so that they can drive up its price. Cartels are bad for everyone except (for the time being) those within their own privileged ranks. They make everyone else worse off. More for us, less for you. They are the actual embodiment of the very caricature they claim to be fighting against (the greedy business magnate).
    Capitalism is built on artificial constrictions of supply. This is not something unions have invented or are the only ones to utilize, it's the fundamental aspect of capitalism.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You have no idea what you are talking about, have never seen a business financial statement, have no idea the costs associated with starting a business yet you are an expert on how businesses operate? Please tell me why a union executive should make a six figure salary and what they do to earn that salary? What benefit do they provide to the common investor in the company they supposedly represent? Do your parents have stock in any company? Wonder how they feel about union management receiving all that money and generating nothing to them for their investment? Who do you think pays for the salaries of union management??
    You're displaying a fundamental misunderstanding here. Union management is paid for by the members of the unions. That cost is not directly paid for by the company. It costs those of us with stocks nothing. As stockholders, CEO pay costs us infinitely more than union leader pay.

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    Re: Union Demands send Firm and jobs packing from California

    Quote Originally Posted by Unrepresented View Post
    Undercutting your citizens into low paying jobs hurts both your citizens and the citizens of the states standing up for better conditions and pay.

    Taking a low ball offer doesn't make you a winner, it makes the corporation low balling you a winner. Everyone else loses.
    The point is the state and the people who live in it have the right to make that choice. And it is a choice. And if it undercuts another state too bad. I am in business nobody sheds any tears for me when my competitors come in and low ball their bids. Everybody is for that, except of course when it happens to them or the company they work for. Why should I give a crap about some whiny bitches who refuse to improvise, overcome and adapt. Boo fricken hoo. Much ado about absolutely nothing.
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