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Thread: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

  1. #71
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    At least, when Americans murder women and children, there is an American judicial system that will make them pay for their heinous crimes. Let the title of "baby killers" rest with ISIS, who truly deserve the name. Americans hold themselves to a higher standard, and woe to those who violate it. Excellent verdict.

    Article is here.
    I, too, believe that America and Americans are far better than this. I don't know the details, and certainly Baghdad during time of war and its aftermath is likely no picnic, but the killing of so many people in a public square cannot go unpunished.

    Perhaps if this verdict had been more timely the government of Iraq would have been more receptive to American forces remaining in Iraq in 2010/2011 and not subject to Iraqi law and courts. If they'd seen that Americans can be trusted to fully prosecute the wrongdoing of their agents they would have agreed to the terms and the issues in Iraq with ISIS/ISIL/IS would not have reached this stage.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I, too, believe that America and Americans are far better than this. I don't know the details, and certainly Baghdad during time of war and its aftermath is likely no picnic, but the killing of so many people in a public square cannot go unpunished.

    Perhaps if this verdict had been more timely the government of Iraq would have been more receptive to American forces remaining in Iraq in 2010/2011 and not subject to Iraqi law and courts. If they'd seen that Americans can be trusted to fully prosecute the wrongdoing of their agents they would have agreed to the terms and the issues in Iraq with ISIS/ISIL/IS would not have reached this stage.
    So in a way it's our fault huh

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I would like to see the evidence and find out how many of the jurors are combat veterans. It's supposed to be a jury of their peers, afterall.
    In this quote you seem to state that at least some of the jurors in this trial should be the defendants peers, i.e. combat vets.
    I asked if that meant a gangsta thug's jurors should be his peers, i.e. gangsta thugs.
    You replied with this......


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Are soldiers on the battlefield judged by a different standard that gangsters here in the states?
    Of course soldiers on the battlefield are judged by a different standard.
    Which didn't really answer my question.
    I guess I'm just wondering how you define a "jury of their peers".
    Do accused embezzlers need embezzlers on their jury, accused murderers need murderers etc.
    Not really a big deal, just curious.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    In this quote you seem to state that at least some of the jurors in this trial should be the defendants peers, i.e. combat vets.
    I asked if that meant a gangsta thug's jurors should be his peers, i.e. gangsta thugs.
    You replied with this......




    Of course soldiers on the battlefield are judged by a different standard.
    Which didn't really answer my question.
    I guess I'm just wondering how you define a "jury of their peers".
    Do accused embezzlers need embezzlers on their jury, accused murderers need murderers etc.
    Not really a big deal, just curious.
    When I see comments like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Why are they no longer part of the military?

    When you're done, you're done. PMCs are still a plague to the USA.

    There is a reason why they're no longer part of the military, whether it's age or something else.
    ...I have to wonder how fair and impartial the jury that judged these men really was.

    A jury of their peers is obvious. There's no need to use a rediculous comparison. American citizens who commit crimes in America are judged by American citizens who live in America, under normal conditions.

    Combat soldiers, who are accused of crimes on the battlefield are judges by other combat soldiers who understand the complications and confusion that exist on a battlefield, especially in a non-conventional environment such as the on that existed in Iraq.

    Ultimately, that environment was created by the terrorists, intetionally, because they knew it would create confusion and non-combatant casualties. If you want to blane someone, blame the terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Let's see if I can respond to this as some of our more addled...oops..I mean illustrious posters might....

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Far more important, the laws and courts restrict the use of force to certain situations e.g., self-defense. In general, a reasonable person would have to fear imminent serious harm or threat to his/her life in order to be justified in shooting another person. Of course, that's a general statement and their are nuances.
    1) That's just not true....the shooters are ALWAYS justified.

    The Wafer case in Michigan saw the argument of self-defense fail, because the shooter fired through a locked screen door at a woman. There was no imminent threat to the shooter's life. He could have easily closed and locked the door he had opened prior to shooting the woman and called the police.
    2) The jury was wrong, people only come to your door when they want to kill you. This is why there aren't any more Fuller Brush men or door-to-door encyclopedia salesmen.

    The Dunn case also saw the argument of self-defense fail. In this case, the targets of the shooting were unarmed. Moreover, they were trying to drive away from the scene of the argument, in effect "disengaging" from the confrontation. Even if a threat had existed, and no witnesses saw the victims of the shooting ever draw a shotgun and the teens were found to have been unarmed, disengagement would indicate that the threat had ended. Therefore, the kind of imminent threat required to sustain a self-defense argument was lacking. That the shooter failed to contact the police afterward further undercut the self-defense argument, as reasonable people who had defended themselves would have contacted the police to report their actions confident that they had acted lawfully.
    3) But Dunn THOUGHT they MIGHT POSSIBLY be a threat, what with all that loud music---I think it was ABBA--- so yes he was justified in his attack.

    IMO, even as the details of the above two cases differ, the principles that define whether a claim of self-defense is justified are shared. Hence, it is no surprise that both cases resulted in the failure of the self-defense argument.
    4) The juries/judges were mistaken. Juries screw up. Just look at the OJ Simpson case. Now that I think of it, OJ should have mounted a self-defense defense.


    In contrast, if the leaked evidence (witness accounts, autopsy, and forensic evidence) regarding the Ferguson, MO case is accurate (e.g., the victim of the shooting had attempted to seize the police officer's gun), the police officer's argument of self-defense could be sustained. Why would someone attempt to seize a police officer's gun? A reasonable person would conclude that the individual intended to use the gun to cause harm. I don't have all the information that is available to the Grand Jury, just what has been reported. Therefore, I use the conditional words "if" and "could."
    Agreed.
    Last edited by radioman; 10-23-14 at 08:25 PM. Reason: clarification
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    "We gots enough black men's in prison already" Sound familiar?
    Where did the quote come from? When I google it, I come up with debatepolitics.

    So you found absolutely no issue with the evidence. No issue with the police work? No issue with Furhmann?

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeisshort View Post
    So in a way it's our fault huh
    Not "in a way", it's entirely our fault.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    At least, when Americans murder women and children, there is an American judicial system that will make them pay for their heinous crimes. Let the title of "baby killers" rest with ISIS, who truly deserve the name. Americans hold themselves to a higher standard, and woe to those who violate it. Excellent verdict.

    Article is here.
    IMO they should have been left in that country to face punishment. Not brought here and prosecuted.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    IMO they should have been left in that country to face punishment. Not brought here and prosecuted.
    That would have violated their civil rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I, too, believe that America and Americans are far better than this. I don't know the details, and certainly Baghdad during time of war and its aftermath is likely no picnic, but the killing of so many people in a public square cannot go unpunished.

    Perhaps if this verdict had been more timely the government of Iraq would have been more receptive to American forces remaining in Iraq in 2010/2011 and not subject to Iraqi law and courts. If they'd seen that Americans can be trusted to fully prosecute the wrongdoing of their agents they would have agreed to the terms and the issues in Iraq with ISIS/ISIL/IS would not have reached this stage.
    We would have never prosecuted someone for violating Sharia Law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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