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Thread: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Dana's been here since 2007...do you have evidence to back this claim up? Or are you proclaiming to be a mind reader? Or are you just guessing and stating an opinion and acting like it's fact because of your overly inflated value you place on your own opinion?

    It would be absolutely accurate if you wanted to say that Dana is baised and negative towards mercenary forces used in a war zone...that is actually verifiable based on his past statements. But I've seen nothing of him articulating that he believed these gentleman to be guilty any time prior to the post in question that occured AFTER they were found guilty.
    Thank you for your post. Yes, I am anti-mercenary, and there is good reason for that. Soldiers are held accountable through the chain of command. Mercenaries typically have no real "structured" chain of command, and that can lead to big problems. Soldiers are, for the most part, disciplined fighters, while mercenaries have been known to frequently go "off the reservation". Which is why I believe that wars should only be fought by men and women in uniform.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They're American citizens working for The United States government. They don't fit the description of a mercenary.
    Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, might as well be a duck.

    They're "mercenaries" out for profit, not loyal to the USA, the country that gave them everything (shelter, education, community, etc.). The ones who are loyal to the USA moreso than their own company resigned.

    Mercenaries are like traitors, the scum of the scum that deserve nothing but annihilation just as much as terrorists. They follow nothing and they steal money; they'll have empty trucks drive "supply" runs just so that they can prolong their duty and ask the government to pay more for the costs. If they aren't stealing money apparently they're so bored that they decide to start killing people for the sake of killing people.
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    For me, this situation is the reason I don't want contractors in a war zone. I know they are cost effective, but war zones should be for combat troops. Not private security.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    These Blackwater mercenaries were NOT members of the US military. They were paid civilian mercenaries. Therefore they do not have the right to have a jury composed of military servicemen, since military servicemen are NOT their peers, thank God.
    First off, they don't fit the definition of mercenary under international law.Second, a jury made up of people who never served in the military, nor served in combat, aren't their peers, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    At least, when Americans murder women and children, there is an American judicial system that will make them pay for their heinous crimes. Let the title of "baby killers" rest with ISIS, who truly deserve the name. Americans hold themselves to a higher standard, and woe to those who violate it. Excellent verdict.

    Article is here.
    Blackwater, like any entity participating in security operations in a war-type setting, is required to heed the Laws of War when conducting security operations. Indiscriminate attacks against civilians is prohibited. If one goes back to the news coverage of the time, it appeared that Blackwater's actions were inappropriate and unlawful.

    Following the shooting, Blackwater issued a statement that declared, "The 'civilians' reportedly fired upon by Blackwater professionals were in fact armed enemies, and Blackwater personnel returned defensive fire." (Source: "Leila Fadel, Joseph Neff and Hussein Kadhim, "Security contractor under fire," Ottawa Citizen, September 18, 2007).

    The two central questions were:
    1. Were the people fired upon armed?
    2. Did the people fired upon attack Blackwater's personnel (the "defensive" fire argument)?

    In the aftermath of the shooting, the following information became available shortly after that tragedy:

    1. None of the dead and wounded people were armed (Source: "Leila Fadel, Joseph Neff and Hussein Kadhim, "Security contractor under fire," Ottawa Citizen, September 18, 2007).
    2. The police report on the incident declared that Blackwater's personnel "opened fire crazily and randomly, without any reason." (Source: "Private solders were unprovoked: Iraqi Investigators," Ottawa Citizen, October 1, 2007).
    3. Witnesses did not report any gunfire prior to the incident nor any return gunfire against Blackwater's personnel (Source: Anne Davies, "One Blackwater guard yelled 'No, no, no,' Sydney Morning Herald, October 6, 2007).
    4. Video footage contradicted the Blackwater account of events (Source: "Private solders were unprovoked: Iraqi Investigators," Ottawa Citizen, October 1, 2007).

    The first point undercuts the first central question. All four points undercut the second central question.

    In short, the shooting appeared to have been unlawful and inappropriate based on the early evidence. As the trial evidence failed to sustain the two central questions on which Blackwater's defense rested, I don't think the verdict is surprising nor improper.

    In the end, when one uses force and asserts "self-defense," one better have concrete evidence to support that claim. Absent credible evidence, "self-defense" isn't a viable legal recourse, as two recent verdicts have now demonstrated. In the Dunn murder trial, no meaningful evidence toward that end was available, as two juries concluded from the evidence that Dunn's attack was unwarranted (the unarmed targets of his shooting were trying to drive away rather than threatening him with a shotgun when he suddenly opened fire on them). In this case, no credible evidence surfaced to sustain Blackwater's argument that it responded defensively to an attack on its personnel (the victims were unarmed and Blackwater did all the shooting according to witness accounts and video evidence).

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    You can be anti-mercenary (because that is what these morons are) and still be pro US being in Iraq.

    All those contractor companies were evil from the start, looking for profit, no loyalty whatsoever to the US. Let companies hire those crooks, not the military.

    Iraq for Sale: War Profiteers, watch it some time. There are some ex-mercenaries there giving their perspective on the ****tiness of the companies.
    I am sorry but this post is full of a lot of BS. The majority of people who work for the more combat focused contractor companies are some of the most patriotic people you will ever meet. Quite a bit more than your average citizen. Almost all of the contractors that work for companies like Blackwater or Triple Canopy are guys who have already served their country honorably with many of them having a background in SOF and after sacrificing a lot have decided to try and make some better money. The same goes for the guys who start these companies. The founder of Blackwater is a former SEAL officer.
    Not to many people are not interested in making more money and saying they are disloyal to the US because they want to is nothing but crap.
    I am sorry but I know and have worked with more contractors than probably anyone else on this forum and the things you are saying about them is just straight up crap.

    With that said any time you have that many people doing a job their are bound to be some bad eggs. If these guys did do what it seems like they did then I say they should spend the rest of their lives in jail.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, might as well be a duck.

    They're "mercenaries" out for profit, not loyal to the USA, the country that gave them everything (shelter, education, community, etc.). The ones who are loyal to the USA moreso than their own company resigned.

    Mercenaries are like traitors, the scum of the scum that deserve nothing but annihilation just as much as terrorists. They follow nothing and they steal money; they'll have empty trucks drive "supply" runs just so that they can prolong their duty and ask the government to pay more for the costs. If they aren't stealing money apparently they're so bored that they decide to start killing people for the sake of killing people.
    No, they're not mercenaries.

    Mercenary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    I am sorry but this post is full of a lot of BS. The majority of people who work for the more combat focused contractor companies are some of the most patriotic people you will ever meet. Quite a bit more than your average citizen. Almost all of the contractors that work for companies like Blackwater or Triple Canopy are guys who have already served their country honorably with many of them having a background in SOF and after sacrificing a lot have decided to try and make some better money. The same goes for the guys who start these companies. The founder of Blackwater is a former SEAL officer.
    Not to many people are not interested in making more money and saying they are disloyal to the US because they want to is nothing but crap.
    I am sorry but I know and have worked with more contractors than probably anyone else on this forum and the things you are saying about them is just straight up crap.

    With that said any time you have that many people doing a job their are bound to be some bad eggs. If these guys did do what it seems like they did then I say they should spend the rest of their lives in jail.
    Contractors are a plague to the US, why we hire them for anything is beyond me.

    If they were so patriotic they would join the US military straight-up.
    -----MOS 19D = cavalry scout = best damn MOS there is

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    For me, this situation is the reason I don't want contractors in a war zone. I know they are cost effective, but war zones should be for combat troops. Not private security.
    The flip side of that, is that no one is going to weep for a bunch of dead mercenaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftwaffe View Post
    Contractors are a plague to the US, why we hire them for anything is beyond me.

    If they were so patriotic they would join the US military straight-up.
    what percentage of contractors do you think did?


    Thank you, however, for demonstrating that you have no idea what you are talking about when you rant about contractors. It's always helpful to have the ignorant self-identify with their language so that others can stop taking them seriously.


    Incidentally, when you go through Blackwater (or "Xi" or whatever they are now) selection, as part of your contract, you are required to reaffirm your oath of loyalty to the United States of America. So there is that li'l tidbit.

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