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Thread: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

  1. #151
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    Given the insults, I'll respond a final time on this matter, but will ignore the insults in the future. Such insults illustrate the remarkably shallow nature of the claim made for Dunn's "innocence" and the need to suspend legal principles and evidence to sustain such a claim.

    The repeated insults are entirely the result of an absence of concrete substance and appropriate legal principles to rebut the jury's verdict. They represent an inability to overcome the reality that Dunn's shooting was unlawful. In effect, the claim that Dunn was "innocent" is nothing more than an emotional personal preference.

    Dunn's version of events has been discredited. Dunn claimed he had seen a shotgun. No weapons were found. None of the witnesses to the incident observed a shotgun. Dunn never even mentioned a gun to his fiancé at the time. Dunn claimed that Davis posed a serious threat to him. Instead, Davis was seated when shot by Dunn. Dunn claimed he had acted in self-defense. He never contacted the police following the shooting, even as rational and reasonable people who believed that they had acted in self-defense would have done so as soon as any actual or perceived threat had ended.

    Evasion of critical facts, including those above, documented in the linked news accounts with unsourced opinion is not a substitute for the lack of factual basis for claims of Dunn's "innocence." Such a basis did not exist to the extent that there would have been the "reasonable doubt" necessary for the jury to acquit Dunn.

    #145 sums up the critical evidence of the case and includes appropriate links (in stark contrast to the repeated unsourced claims, not to mention baseless attempts to discredit the Medical Examiner, Dunn's fiancé, etc.). Consideration of the documented evidence and application of the criteria required for a successful self-defense argument provide a good understanding as to why the jury found as it did.

    The claim that Dunn was "innocent" relies on ignoring the key evidence (provided in the linked news sources), not understanding the criteria required for self-defense (an actual imminent threat to one's life or of serious harm or a case where a reasonable person would perceive such an imminent threat, emphasis on "reasonable person"), and/or taking a position as an article of faith regardless of the evidence. Given the evidence laid out in the news stories, including but not limited to Davis' being seated when shot, even if a perceived threat had existed, that perceived threat had ended when Dunn opened fire. Dunn had no legitimate or lawful basis to open fire on the unarmed teens. Therefore, the jury's verdict was logical, consistent with the principles of the law, and wholly expected among those who followed the case giving reasonable attention to the evidence and applicable principles of law.

    Finally, the evidence for Dunn's actions having been unlawful was so strong that Judge Healey remarked during the sentencing phase, "Our justice system works. This case demonstrates that our justice system does work.” The weight of the evidence and the jury's proper application of legal principles makes a successful appeal of the verdict and sentence very unlikely.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 10-27-14 at 12:42 PM.

  2. #152
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Given the insults, I'll respond a final time on this matter, but will ignore the insults in the future.
    Figures.
    Still with the dishonesty and going in circles with crap that has already been dispelled.

    Facts are not insults. Stop trying to confuse the two.

    You have been dishonest.
    You have ignored the actual evidence.
    You have engaged in irrational thought.
    You have engaged in logical fallacies.
    You have avoided addressing the actual evidence.
    And have repeatedly shown you are ignorant of the actual evidence.

    All the while failing to recognize that the logical fallacy you rely on, is a logical fallacy, and is irrelevant to a discussion of the actual evidence.

    Such behavior illustrates the remarkably shallow nature of your position.
    Your arguments are entirely the result of an absence of concrete substance and appropriate legal principles to rebut what the evidence actually supports, all in an effort to support your illogical emotional personal preferences.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn's version of events has been discredited.
    Wrong.
    Dunn's account is the only account supported by the evidence, as you have been shown, yet continually avoid addressing.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn claimed he had seen a shotgun. No weapons were found. None of the witnesses to the incident observed a shotgun.
    Already dispelled by the actual circumstances around the event.
    The evidence allows for Davis to have been armed.
    That is your failure in not recognizing that.
    The evidence also allows for Dunn to have incorrectly identified a phone as a gun, which we all know police officers are cleared all the time for such errors. Even though they had not been verbally threatened as Dunn was.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn never even mentioned a gun to his fiancé at the time.
    Already dispelled.
    He did.
    Her, an emotional disturbed person, not remembering what she was told after a traumatic experience in no way means he did not tell her.
    It is ridiculously absurd and unrealistic to hold to any other position.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn claimed that Davis posed a serious threat to him. Instead, Davis was seated when shot by Dunn.
    False.
    Again, this is your failure to know the actual evidence even though you have already been informed of it.
    That is called being dishonest.
    That fact that you have already been informed yet still cling to a failed argument speaks clearly, not only to your dishonesty, but to the shallow nature of your claims and your need to cling to your illogical emotional personal preferences.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn claimed he had acted in self-defense. He never contacted the police following the shooting, even as rational and reasonable people who believed that they had acted in self-defense would have done so as soon as any actual or perceived threat had ended.
    Already dispelled, and again showing a desire to cling to your illogical emotional personal preferences.
    He was not required to do so.
    Rational and reasonable people all act differently, especially after traumatic experiences. There is no set way a person does, or must act. Reasonable people understand that.
    Unreasonable and cynical people who want to find guilt assume it means something nefarious.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Evasion of critical facts,

    You are the only one engaging in such behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    including those above, documented in the linked news accounts with unsourced opinion is not a substitute for the lack of factual basis for claims of Dunn's "innocence." Such a basis did not exist to the extent that there would have been the "reasonable doubt" necessary for the jury to acquit Dunn.
    Wrong.
    You have already been proven wrong, as three jurors from the first trial wanted to acquit him, as well as a significant minority that believes his account.

    All it really boils down to was the capability of the Lawyer to frame and make the arguments.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    #145 sums up the critical evidence of the case and includes appropriate links (in stark contrast to the repeated unsourced claims,
    Wrong. Your argument, as well on reliance on irrelevant reports was dispelled in the reply.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    not to mention baseless attempts to discredit the Medical Examiner,
    Baseless attempts?
    What a laugh.
    You again are just showing your ignorance of the evidence.
    She was discredited during the trial, by the not having been given all the evidence to draw her conclusions from, to the rebuttal by an actual expert, which she clearly was not.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The claim that Dunn was "innocent" relies on ignoring the key evidence
    Said the person ignoring the actual evidence.
    Your claim is pathetic given that the actual evidence actually dispels your claim and clearly puts it in the category of false.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    (provided in the linked news sources),
    Opinions and reports of the actual evidence is not the actual evidence or a substitute for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    not understanding the criteria required for self-defense (an actual imminent threat to one's life or of serious harm or a case where a reasonable person would perceive such an imminent threat, emphasis on "reasonable person"),
    Any lack of understanding, as previously shown, is on your end.
    And we already know that three jurors wanted to acquit him from the first trial. Which just shows your position is again wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    and/or taking a position as an article of faith regardless of the evidence.
    Which is what you have repeatedly shown you are doing.
    You are absurdly relying on an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy.
    Have repeatedly shown you are ignorant of the evidence, and have relied on reports and opinion which are not the actual evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    including but not limited to Davis' being seated when shot,
    Another failed and dispelled argument.
    It was shown during trial that he was not seated.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    even if a perceived threat had existed, that perceived threat had ended when Dunn opened fire.
    Already dispelled, as it did not and could not cease to exist within the circumstances until the threat was far enough away to make any return fire from the threat ineffective.
    Which is the only way such a moving threat could become a non-threat.

    This just shows that you, as well as the juror, failed to recognize reality and exemplifies one reason why Juries get things wrong all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Dunn had no legitimate or lawful basis to open fire on the unarmed teens.
    Wrong.
    And opened fire on the threat which was Davis.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Therefore, the jury's verdict was logical, consistent with the principles of the law, and wholly expected among those who followed the case giving reasonable attention to the evidence and applicable principles of law.
    Given the evidence, you are again speaking nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Finally, the evidence for Dunn's actions having been unlawful was so strong that Judge Healey remarked during the sentencing phase, "Our justice system works. This case demonstrates that our justice system does work.” The weight of the evidence and the jury's proper application of legal principles makes a successful appeal of the verdict and sentence very unlikely.

    More illogical reliance on a logical fallacy.
    The Judges remarks mean absolutely nothing to this discussion. Had he been found not guilty the Judges remarks would have fit that verdict as well.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

  3. #153
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If you'd read the entire source, you would leaned that all conditions must exist to meet the definition of a mercenary. By your interpretation, US servicemen can be defined as mercenaries.
    Nope. Servicemen have a job and aren't outsourced/funded for hire by other entities to do their dirty work. Sorry... Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Nope. Servicemen have a job and aren't outsourced/funded for hire by other entities to do their dirty work. Sorry... Try again.
    Servicemembers are contracted to The United States Government, for a price. Blackwater employees are contracted to The United States government, for a price. Nope, by your logic, there is no difference.

    Now, according to international law, Blackwater employees aren't mercenairies. You're always hoisting the laws of war on high and demanding they be followed to the letter. The time has come for you to abide by the same standard you demand from everyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Servicemembers are contracted to The United States Government, for a price. Blackwater employees are contracted to The United States government, for a price. Nope, by your logic, there is no difference.

    Now, according to international law, Blackwater employees aren't mercenairies. You're always hoisting the laws of war on high and demanding they be followed to the letter. The time has come for you to abide by the same standard you demand from everyone else.
    Not even remotely close. Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  6. #156
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Not even remotely close. Try again.
    Face it, bro; you're wrong. Blackwater employees aren't mercenaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Face it, bro; you're wrong. Blackwater employees aren't mercenaries.
    I served in desert storm. When we pushed Iraq out of Kuwait the returning leader of Kuwait offered to pay money to each service member in gratitude. HW Bush turned it down and said we were not mercenaries. We are hired by the US to defend our country and its interests. Had we taken that other money it could be seen as mercenary for hire. We didn't. Insert a private institution for hire to pull triggers... That's mercenary.

    Quit failing and embarrassing yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

  8. #158
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    I served in desert storm. When we pushed Iraq out of Kuwait the returning leader of Kuwait offered to pay money to each service member in gratitude. HW Bush turned it down and said we were not mercenaries. We are hired by the US to defend our country and its interests. Had we taken that other money it could be seen as mercenary for hire. We didn't. Insert a private institution for hire to pull triggers... That's mercenary.

    Quit failing and embarrassing yourself.
    Thank you for your service.

    Right, that money would have come from a foreign government. Blackwater employees are American citizens, working for and paid by The United States government.

    You can't just make up your own definition of what a mercenary is and claim victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #159
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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Blackwater mercenaries are sub-contractors, paid by their boss, who is paid by the US government. They're not government employees.
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Jury: Ex-Blackwater contractors guilty in 'outrageous' Nusoor Square shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Thank you for your service.
    Appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    Right, that money would have come from a foreign government. Blackwater employees are American citizens, working for and paid by The United States government.

    You can't just make up your own definition of what a mercenary is and claim victory.
    Privatizing war contracts to pull the trigger can never be equated in any way to the contract the servicemen of our country signed. We take an oath.

    I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

    Contractors do not. Contractors, no matter their personal feelings or intent, work for profit. That is mercenary work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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